I can come up with a better argument: everyone needs to shut up and not mention this kind of topic again.
KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK?

Every damn time I find one of these threads, it goes on for weeks because people have differing opinions about what is rightfully theirs.
I support having a map protector because it is useful in making sure alpha/beta tests are alpha/beta tests and nothing more (not some huge leak of unfinished crap that plagues some 200 new maps, good and bad). Illegal? Too bad. Sue me. I'm in America, after all, so even the most trivial bat crap can validate litigation.
I do not see M$ giving a damn about CMT and their protection methods. I wouldn't be surprised if they knew very well that they were doing so.

Still, by public release, IMO THERE IS NOT ONE REASON WHY ANYONE SHOULD LOCK UP THEIR TAGS (I guess, in general, due to my last argument...)! By then, they should be exactly how the creators wanted them to be. If not, too bad. They have then truly given the map up to public hands. Beta leaked to the public? That's the creators' fault for not choosing a responsible person. Really, I would have to say that this is the case for public betas, too. People have a right to those tags now that the map is free for everyone to get to (not implying that people are selling maps, which is also illegal).
It's a good thing H3MT's and CMT's map tests are only private, because in that case, I really don't see the big deal thus far. The developers are giving the tags to each other, and as for their friends, it's like giving a trusted friend... oh, say a video game, to entertain them for a while...


I'm rambling.
In short: Public betas are no-nos, private alphas/betas with protection... *should* be ok (I guess legally they are not though), public releases shouldn't have protection, because the tags should already be finished to the point where the developers are ok with them mucking up other maps...

It's a compromise, even though legally it wouldn't work.

nah i just wanted to know if it is possible
i wasn't even thinking to to do it

Do it.

Not trying to be a kiss ass but I completely share the view. These freakin elitists thinking their stuff is so sacred that nobody has the right to use them is complete ludicrous.

Whoop dee god damn doo, you know how to model. Good for you. But the MINUTE you put a model you make into Halo, you no longer own it, nor can you sell it or make money off of it. It's Microsoft's. If you think so highly of your models, realize the fact that any rights to them are void if you put them in a game engine, unless you're developing a game on that engine, which you need a license for. (IE Unreal) When you put them in Halo, you NO LONGER OWN THE MODEL.

Bungie/Gearbox did not release a protector. It was user-made. Which means you're using THIRD-PARTY means to protect tags. Remember that.
Edited by Marka Haiyana on May 23, 2009 at 02:19 AM

You have as much right to the tags of the map as you do the map itself.



If Kiwi recalls, the program used to rip maps is also third-party. So take that into consideration.

True. However I still stand by most of what I've said and I still think the amount of drama over people thinking they have full rights to their content is ridiculous.

That map extractor has caused so much crap. I wish it were never released. Hell, I wish no 3rd party apps existed, now modding seems to be a huge competition of skill...

Also:



Fact: What you're saying is not true. There are laws against stealing money. There are no laws against stealing tags. The law, if I remember correctly, says that once you run something through tool, you no longer have the rights to it.



Fact: The law is above any community. ANY community. If you don't like the law, tough. You are not above the law, and neither is the community.



Opinions underlined. And as true as the second half may be, if the author puts his content in a place where it may get stolen, chances are, it's going to get stolen. It's the author's fault for taking that risk. Tough luck, but no laws are broken at all. The "thieves" are within the law.



...

Wow.

Let me be brutally honest with you. I don't give a damn if you're a badass modeler. To me, you sound like a total elitist prick, thinking anyone who doesn't share your view is immature, and that they'll "grow out of it." Have you ever considered that perhaps their view is valid as well, rather than marking anybody who disagrees with you down as "not an adult?" You're like a religious extremist looking down on anyone who disagrees; like an XBox fanboy who thinks the PS3 and Wii are total garbage and don't deserve to have any sales. Perhaps you could put some effort into respecting other people's opinions. It's really sad for you to be so narrow minded over someone not agreeing with you.



Okay. You sound like you've got your facts and opinions mixed up. No matter how many people share your opinion, it's still just an opinion. It will never be fact.

Here, let me give you some examples:

FACTS:
1. When you rip from a game that YOU ALREADY OWN, you're taking assets from the game, which isn't illegal as long as there isn't any commercial use or profit being made, or unless the developers speak up (Correct me if I'm wrong, and show me proof).
2. When you pirate a program or game YOU DON'T OWN, you're stealing from the developers, because you didn't purchase the program, which is illegal.
3. When you compile content into the engine, you no longer, by law, have the rights to that content. It belongs to the original game developers.

OPINIONS (UNBOLD being the subject, BOLD being the opinion):
1. Rippers deserve no respect because they're lazy.
2. Mappers who use other people's content without permission deserve to die.

Why don't you enlighten us to this "truth" you speak of? I'm sure Dennis wouldn't ban someone for something that's true based on factual information and not mere opinion. If that were the case, he wouldn't be fit to be an admin, now would he?

With that said, why would he ban you for pointing out facts?

I look forward to your response, Hunter.
Edited by Marka Haiyana on May 23, 2009 at 02:50 PM

Don't do it yet!!
Wait until SPV2 is released. Then you can do it safely without upsetting the release ;)

^ opinion. tell that to someone with no coding experience. They wouldn't know where to start. ;)
Edited by Marka Haiyana on May 23, 2009 at 06:06 AM

I really have no idea why you made that statement...

Back to the topic, you stated making a map protector isn't hard. That is not true, and is more of an opinion than anything. Really though, it just depends.

And I back that statement up with this: For you, personally, it may not be hard. For a coder, it may not be hard. But for someone who has had no experience as you said, it would be impossible for them to make a program, and it would, in fact, be difficult to make.

So, under certain circumstances, yes, making a map un-protector WOULD be hard.
Edited by Marka Haiyana on May 23, 2009 at 06:30 AM

Sigh, you lost me.

im scared D:

Just make your own tool
Edited by Advancebo on May 23, 2009 at 11:24 AM

You still don't own the rights to it, since it is related, or is used in the "Halo" game.

Make your on Halo CE and dont make a profit out of it.

Half the time people protect maps for good reasons like cmt, not bad ones.
A good reason:
CMT. I worked with them for a while and Duce told me to rip one of there maps to get some bitmaps for a level, and I ripped the entire thing accidentally, not thinking about what might happen when I find out that almost my entire tag set is full of corrupt bitmaps.
Bad reason:
You don't want people to have the tags you've worked on for so long, and/or just don't want them to have it at all because your trying to be "cool" (Even if you were to do this, you should show them how to do it themselves other then just handing out the tags)

Now seriously, that is one of the main reasons people just protect their tags. But the corrupt bitmaps? Why would he make you rip bitmaps that don't even work? :|
Edited by iTails on May 23, 2009 at 11:38 AM

No, the bitmaps were fine. But when I ripped it, I had my hek+ on overwrite from something before and overwrite my bitmaps, globals, ui, etc. Even if I didn't have overwrite on, it still would of messed up my ui and globals, and lots of other stuff.

If someone feels that they have the urge to protect a map, thats fine. The fact is that unprotecting a map without the consent of the map creator is immoral. The creator protected the map for a reason, and you are doing something that the creator would not approve of.

I dont see a 100% legit reason why you would protect a map though. If people really want, they can unprotect it.
Edited by NapalM on May 23, 2009 at 11:56 AM

What the creator intended to do with the tags before he released them is his decision, but when it gets released to public, and it gets unprotected, how is it immoral and why would you have to ask for the consent of the creator? He released the tags so you can use them, plain and simple.

It's not immoral. The map creator made the mistake of assuming that he has a right to keep tags away from others. Now, I'm not saying he can't protect his tags. Of course he can. He can do whatever he pleases with his map, as long as its not released.

However, if he assumes that just by protecting his tags everybody will be nice and respect his tags, that is his fault. The fact is there is nothing that he can do about his tags once released to the public. The moment he released the map, he implied his consent to this statement: "The rights to my content have been given up to Microsoft, and Microsoft mandates that my content is free to be used by the public in any way, shape, or form." Whether or not he was aware of that statement doesn't matter.

The fact that he is unaware of that statement is his fault, not yours. You have the right to use his content, as well as everyone else's. Will he be upset? Of course he will. But really, whose fault is it? He who protected his map because he assumed he had the rights to control his content? Or you, who knows you have the right to use all content?

You can't really argue over the definition of immoral. It's an opinion. I like your point though.


You know that the creator didn't want you to rip it. Yes, there's no law saying that you can't rip tags, and the creator will be upset at whoever ripped them.

you CAN use them yes. I find it really sad that theres a topic about this every other week.
Edited by NapalM on May 23, 2009 at 01:24 PM

Right, it is an opinion. Just like your opinion is that it is immoral, my opinion is that it's not immoral.

IMO, lock plz.


Edited by iTails on May 23, 2009 at 01:41 PM

I don't know why dennis didn't lock this earlier.

maybe its cause he wants people to see his response and see his view, if he locks the thread it will quickly fall down the list and less people will see it..

I think he hasn't locked it because at this point, nobody's calling each other retarded or anything, and we're having a reasonably mature discussion about this.

Still waiting for Hunter's reply. :)
Edited by Marka Haiyana on May 23, 2009 at 05:40 PM

Not this thread again...

If Dennis believes in something, he doesn't see the other side due to him bringing the legal part to complete his opinion.

Dennis, Microsoft, doesn't give a whooping ass really anymore. What? You really think that you can make them lose money by releasing a map? Unless you can also change graphics and the games engine, then maybe.. which I highly doubt that would even do anything.

If someone protects a map. You leave it protected and let the property of that persons work stay as it is and use it only as it was meant to be used. I could bring 100 real life examples of how it would be wrong, but I wont, since half of you are under the age of 14, and wouldn't even understand. :)

what is wrong with that dude? It not right to unprotest people maps just so they can use someone else maps and I think it not cool but I once tried to do it on CMT SPv1 but nah I got high respect for CMT and other protested maps I want to rip it but I learned my lesson not to rip anything from unprotested\protest map so you jsut need to learn how to make your own tags, texture, model, and animation :| so instead I discided to make my own instead of ripping.
Edited by lil_bankhead on Jun 1, 2009 at 10:16 AM

Fixes and mild questions in bold.

Honestly, I think I think everything should be open sourced, but there are people out there (I'm not pointing fingers or naming people) that dont want this to happen. In the end its up to the person who made the stuff. Sure its not even theres anymore, but they still have a value of it, becuase they made it. I think theres one thing to say about this right now, and thats: "Would you give something you made to someone else for free in person, knowing that it will not belong to you anymore, and can and most likely will be used by someone else?" Thats the question you need to ask yourself before running your work through tool and bringing it in-game.

I really have had no problem with protected or un-protected maps. Some people say it is not right to steal from other people's maps then use those "stolen" tags in a map and give them to the public. There are other people who rip because they admire the work and think the tags are very fun. Still others think that there should be no protected maps. I could go on with this list, but we all get the point.
Yes, ripping tags would seem like stealing work. Someone worked long and hard to create them, and someone just rips them. But on the flipside, why would you spend so long making them in the first place?
Here is my personal view of this, and anything in this paragraph is opinion: I believe protecting maps, or the tags, makes it seem like its defeating the purpose of having Halo CE. Their are tons of maps I'd love to mod out there, but the best are usually protected. I made an oath to myself never to protect one of my maps, because I felt that any work, whether a completely new map or a mod of an existing one, should be open to anybody. I do not own it. I do not want to keep everyone unable from doing what they want with a map. The ONLY reason I would protect a map would be because I have unfinished tags, in that case, I would never release it in the first place. I do believe map protecting is really just paranoid of losing your work that you've.... worked for. But, like I said, what did you make them for then? So you can rub it other people's faces? To show off your modding prowess? And I expect a lot of answers to that question.

That was my opinion, but in the facts, the law is still in place. But, as much as we hate it, some people really don't care. Just because its illegal to download some game doesn't mean someone won't download it anyway. Same principal. Just because the law says that people can't protect or own tags made through tool or put into Halo, doesn't mean people won't. Perhaps there should be a map protecter, maybe there shouldn't. But for people who protect their maps, don't be surprised if you see some new guy using your tags in his first mod.
Edited by Sinow on Jun 1, 2009 at 03:04 PM

Let this thread die. Please.

According to Russian law, a boy who was... like 17 or something had to be arrested for having sex with his wife (who was younger then him). The law is not always right, from a moral standpoint, but then again, that depends on your morals.

that one in bold is when I learned my lesson not to rip but I can still rip anyway but long if it as placeholder or modify it for the creater (maybe like if I got permission from them) but some people release few tags and claiming that it was there's but it ain't. 1 thing is jackle, I'm not even sure if he made all the thing he did on the MA5C tags because he did false claim the texture which belone to IV and the model look like it somebody else made it cuz I should have sworn I seen it somewhere in halo pc or trial :|

(the way I did it, and was successful 3 out of 5 times).

Find the encryption method, and use a translator to find the areas of the file that are encrypted.