I stand corrected.

But, if you state that someone cant hold rights to there maps, then the people trying to unprotect maps, dont have the right to try to unprotect.

You certainly have the right to protect the map.. but people have also the right to UNPROTECT it. Your stuff gets unprotected, there's nothing you can do about it, it's not against the law.

Pirating 3DS Max and Photoshop on the other hand... THAT'S stealing someone's copyrighted hard work.
Edited by Marka Haiyana on Jun 3, 2009 at 09:50 PM

No I don’t. Protecting or encrypting a map it is not illegal.
By using “over the top” examples is how you can determine if the basic premise is valid. If the premise is valid for the extreme conditions then it is valid for most all conditions in the middle.
Our society is based on the rule of law. Not caring about can be detrimental to your free lifestyle. The only reason this debate exists is because you can protect maps if an unprotect application was developed this would all be moot.
That is correct. However if someone “unprotects” your map you have no recourse.

I don’t lurk waiting for people to post. I have other things to do. See above.
A more inane and child like statement I haven't seen in years.
Edited by Dennis on Jun 3, 2009 at 10:02 PM

The corect conclusion is that is people cant hold rigths to their maps then they have no way to stop people from "unprotecting" them. I know you want people to not "unprotect" maps but that is not a workable option under the current legal system of intellectual property rights.

Lord Lelouch, im looking at these posts you keep making. if i could understand what they mean, you might convey a really good point. your sentence structure is viciously horrible though. your sentences jump from one idea to another in a matter of 2 words with no grammatical indication of the change, and if my English skills are still sharp, i think you missed a few transitional words as well. all im saying is that it makes it unnecessarily difficult to read your posts

E: and the concise version of this thread is that you have the resources to protect your maps, but if somebody unprotects them, all you can do is huff and puff because while most of us would object to such an action, you have no legal support in perusing the person who did it
Edited by Donut on Jun 3, 2009 at 10:00 PM

I was referring to Lord Lelouch. All his huge essays have paragraphs where he calls us law-breaking, just because we choose to even touch HEK+.

My apologizes.

If its law breaking, Bungie would have been after SteelIXB in 2004. The fact that its been 5 years and nothing has happened proves that it is not illegal. EULA also has nothing against tag extraction. If you could, Lelouch, quote a single sentence of paragraph of EULA that says that.

A lot of people use ripping as a way to avoid learning things themselves, which is ultimately detrimental to them in the long run. In retrospect, I'm glad I didn't have the opportunity to rip from all the maps I saw, because, even though I hated every minute of it, I learned how to make everything myself, and ultimately, the final product is better than the ripped tags.

Oh, OK I haven’t been able to make much sense of this posts, so I forget they are there.

Nothing to apologize for.

This debate does not exist in the UT or Valve map making communities because there is no encryption so there is no choice and by way of sarcasm you can see how poorly they flourish. NOT!

This debate only exists because there currently is a way to encrypt the Halo CE tags so they can't be extracted easily.

How is HEK+ law breaking? Its basically modding a map. Which PC users also do. (Not against you, but against Lelouch) And HEK+ is an external app, like HMT and HHT. All 3 programs basically mod something.

Not everybody's like that.

I support open source content, and at the same time I'm teaching myself how to model. I've already created various weapons, and am currently teaching myself organic modeling.

And, not to stroke my own ego, but when it comes to weapon tags, I know quite a bit about it, if you recall my UT2004 TC. Not to mention I have near-perfect replications of Halo 3's weapon functions done for Grunt's Sandtrap. Projectile speed and error spread is questionable.
Edited by Marka Haiyana on Jun 3, 2009 at 10:18 PM

well, thats you. thats not "a lot of people".
i wanted nothing more than to rip cmt's red shotgun that shot out sparks when you fired it for some crappy ai mod i was making. when i couldnt get it, i decided that i would never get anything like it unless i learned how to do it myself. i taught myself how to model, how to animate (to an extent, im no good at it), and tagging. i ended up learning way more than i set out to do, made a bunch of good friends who i still talk to now, and am moving onto work on my own game this summer. all because i couldnt rip from a cmt map.

would i have learned eventually even if i could have ripped? maybe.

Anecdotal stories do not a conclusion make. There are valid reasons for and against ripping and as I have already shown they are personnel ones and, for Halo CE, not legal ones. In some games they are and people have been sued. But I digress.

I support the open source concept and I also support the Intellectual Property rights concept. It is the designer’s choice to open source or retain all rights to and profit from his original concept. I have done both.

The problem with Halo CE is that there is no choice to be made. No one can own or have rights to anything made for or from the Halo CE game so why not make it available for everyone to use and re-use. To use and not learn from or to look at and learn how. Why do people want to restrict everyone, themselves included, from being able to make the decision: That I will not use ripped tags or I will use ripped tags. You see I also support the right to choose: to choose wisely or unwisely as the personal case may be.
Edited by Dennis on Jun 3, 2009 at 10:37 PM

^wise listen and learn

This debate will never be settled.

GO AHEAD!



FLAME ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!111

What i wonder is if you protect a map, what do you gain from it?

What I wonder is if you unprotect a map and rip from it, what do you gain from it?

The answer is quite obviouse, little onscreen pixles.
But that dosen't really answer my question.

You get tags.

That is a very good reason as to why people protect maps.

Plus, why cant we be selfish? We make the tags/maps, and allow you to play. It would be you who would be selfish wanting that, which isn't yours in the first place. :)

Yes, people that rip it can take credit for the tags. Do some slight or major modification and still call it theirs. And no credit to the original makers.

And it is a vain reason. As stated earlier, it is because they fear it being altered or others taking a little bit of their e-Fame from them as they imply its theirs.

EDIT: To be honest, I don't see what people feel is so important about 'credit' regarding their work. If everyone knows that you are the original creator as you had given info on this earlier, who cares? If nobody knows that its yours and some idiot is claiming it's his, who cares? If you know that it's yours, nobody else matters. The fact that you did the work and finished it is reward enough, and the idiot claiming your work is a little bit of amusement for you. Seriously guys, chillax.
Edited by k9colin on Jun 4, 2009 at 06:30 PM

lawl



I don't really see why you care, its like selling somebody something then stalking them.

It's like selling out cute teddy bears to 20 year old gangsters.

People are not scared about others changing their tags. The reason some people protect maps is that they want something in their map that other maps don't have. I have to use CMT as an example. Not many people would play CMT maps if it wasn't protected because the tags would be used in many other maps. What would make the map special other than the BSP? Not too much. That's why people protect tags. So their map will have something that can attract players and will get more people to play their map that they worked on.

For that particular case, I would agree with you. But the main focus of my argument was on single tags people place with such high regard, which is not difficult to recreate, though the author somehow feels it's a 'one of a kind' piece of work.

For example, the superficial number of MA5C Assault Rifles. Quite a few guys make it because there aren't any (or many known) that are open sourced. And though there are so many, some of their creators (of course not all of them) feel that their work has some intrinsic value making it too important to release to the community though nobody really gives a funk who creates them, especially when 80% of them look almost exactly the same.
Edited by k9colin on Jun 4, 2009 at 07:08 PM

That's why I protect my BSPs.

I think that's the dumbest thing to do. Not many people will mod the average bsp which doesn't make your map lose value/players. Tags are different because many people will reuse tags in new maps... not bsps.

This is all opinion and how we think. I draw my line at where it will increase the amount of players. If protecting my maps gets more players I'll do it. If it doesn't I see no reason to protect it. And if you didn't know by now... I enjoy it when people play the maps I create plus the more players who play/have ot the more I have a chance to play on my own map with others.

That is the best reason to protect a map I've ever heard.

I just remembered why I never play online anymore D: to many people playing a certain 3 maps.

Hugeass
Coldsnap
CMT_Snow_Grove


I'm so sick of those maps...

Let's all take a moment and realize something here.
ARGUING OVER THE INTERNET ABOUT MAP PROTECTION WILL NOT ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING.
Nobody here has the power, nor the right to tell others what to do with the tags they have spent weeks sweating over, so let's just drop this argument and realize that we have to live with whatever choices other people make.
Edited by UnevenElefant5 on Jun 4, 2009 at 08:21 PM

Have you opened your eyes, and seen how many maps have nuke longswords, pelicans, and missle warthogs there are?

So you're using Coldsnap, the poster boy for Halo CE, as an example? Look at all the other maps. There's so many on Halomaps. How many others are played frequently?