No you don't, it wouldn't be done yet. I'm working on the environments during all my free time, but there's a lot still to do.

You should put these in your environment.

So what makes this different from Elites? Not recharging isn't much of a difference. Especially if the Brutes are more about getting in close, instead of taking cover when weak. (And if they're not, then they're even less different.) If I don't have to do anything different against them, and they don't do anything different against me, why have them?


Reach style means they have helmets. And I assume that means the helmets are easily shot off. If I can kill them in two or three shots with a Pistol, or some other headshot weapon, why use another weapon? Especially if the Chieftan also is about removing the helmet. That means headshot guns are better for all units, except Brute Leaders and Elites. And even then I'm guessing they're still just as good as other guns. Or at least good enough that I don't have a reason to switch. Especially if I just pick up a Plasma Pistol for a few seconds to EMP them. Having to use a "weapon combo" on the Chieftan isn't any better. Because, like I said, I just have to pick up a nearby gun that works for five seconds. Then I can just switch back.

That's one of the things I couldn't stand about Reach. The Assault Rifle, Plasma Repeater, Plasma Rifle, and Spiker had no meaningful advantages. (And the Concussion Rifle was just crap.) Even the Needler wasn't so special when headshot guns killed Brutes just as easily. I had no reason not to use DMR/Needle Rifle and Pistol the whole time. It sounds like that's going to be the case here too.

and because we do not speak of the UI ?

The big difference is that you are forced to play a more intense game of cat and mouse with them, since it is harder to fully deplete their shield, especially with multiple enemies around (especially when brutes often work in small packs). The whole notion of brutes that get in close is a broken concept with the H1 health setup, which isn't to say they have their own nuances when they are in close contact with you. Also, Elites aren't in every mission, there are 2 missions which are only brutes, and two which is only elites. Therefore, we do want body shielded enemies for these cases. To top it off, a shield is the only thing that will protect a brute from flood infection, as a single infection form to the skin can force a brute to mutate.

Our unarmored ones do have helmets, but you aren't forced to use headshot weapons to remove them. If you use headshot weapons on them, the only weapon that can kill them in 2 shots is the BR, the pistol takes 3, the Particle Carbine 5, and the DMR takes 2 but is difficult to use at close range. Our automatic weapons on our brutes also keep them stunned as long as damage is being dealt, so we have expanded the effective weapons vs brutes far from what reach had. If you want to stick with an headshot weapon for all purposes, the BR would be your go to weapon, but it's burst is less powerful than that of a Pistol or DMR round.

As far as the plasma pistol goes, its not as common in SPV3 as it is in other games, and we've also added some handicaps to it such as battery drain and higher charge shot depletion rates.

The Chieftains require a weapon combo and headshots to take down, but Chieftains are very rare, and are only in B30, B40, and C40. I suppose one of them could be squeezed into D20 as well, but as of now there is none.

Are you adding the annoying fcking mosquito covenant from halo 2 loved killing those guys but in swarms HEH might as well run!

they can't be implemented in a satisfactory way.

Elites don't work alone. At least in other Halo games. I don't see how it's any more "intense," just because the shields are on a Brute now. If stronger shields is all, then there's nothing unique about the Brute. Elite Commanders have stronger shields, too.


Why is it broken because of H1 health? Do they stop me from using health packs? If I know they'll try to get in close, I know to try and stay away. That changes the way I play against them, compared to Elites. That doesn't mean they have to instant kill me with a melee. Just that they're a little better up close, and a little weaker from far away. The Flood try to get in close. Are you changing that too? Because getting in close is a broken concept?


I'm not a HEK expert. But can't you just change it, so that doesn't happen? By making them do less damage to Brutes? I'm pretty sure a single infection form doesn't kill the player instantly. So it should be possible, right?


It's not about being forced. That would be even worse. It's about headshot guns being always better anyway. You say it takes 2 Battle Rifle shots, or 3 Pistol shots. With the Halo 1 Pistol, which fires at 3.5 RPS, I could kill a Brute Follower in less than a second. And the CMT Pistol goes even faster. I don't know how fast the Battle Rifle shoots, in other Halo games. But if the CMT Battle Rifle is like those games, I'm pretty sure 2 shots is also less than a second. Does the CMT Assault Rifle, or CMT Plasma Rifle, kill Brute Followers in less than a second? If not, why should I use them? Especially since they can also kill Grunts, and Jackals instantly. Headshots aren't hard to get in Halo. Especially you haven't turned down the auto aim.


That just makes the problem worse. Now, on those maps, there are even fewer enemies, that headshot guns aren't always better against.


Like I said, it's not about just killing them. It's about headshot guns being overpowered. By overpowered, I mean they're always a better choice.

Just because there are different weapons, doesn't mean I have interesting choices. A choice isn't interesting, if the "right" answer is always clear. Let's say there's a Pistol, and Assault Rifle. Sure, I can pick up the Assault Rifle. But the Pistol kills every enemy just as quickly. It kills most enemies even more quickly. So the only reason I have to pick up the Assault Rifle, is to see the model. But that's only fun for a few minutes. So after that, the Pistol is always the right choice. I'll never want to pick up the Assault Rifle again.

That's assuming headshot weapons kill Elites, and Brute Leaders, as quickly as non-headshot weapons. We already know they kill Grunts, Jackals, and Brute Followers more quickly. Instantly for Grunts and Jackals, and in less than a second for Brute Followers. (Unless non-headshot weapons do kill Brute Followers in less than a second. But that doesn't seem right.) But it's still a problem, if headshot guns are weaker against Elites, and Brute Leaders. Because now, I just have to have a weapon that's good against shields in my second slot. Like a Plasma Rifle, or Plasma Pistol. Now I'll never have to use a different weapon again.

That's not just bad, because I'm encouraged to ignore lots of content. It also dumbs the game down. I don't have to think about my loadout any more. Once I have my two weapons, I never have to switch again. I just run over ammo caches, or replacements for battery weapons, when I see them. If there's a power weapon, I use that, until it runs out of ammo. Then I switch back.

Don't misread this. It's not just about switching. Halo 4 "fixed" this problem by by having lots of clones. The campaign would get rid of Battle Rifles for one level, but give you lots of Light Rifles. Maybe that's what you're doing. That solves not seeing all the content. But it doesn't solve the bigger problem. Which is that I don't have to think. If I see a weapon cache, I always know what to pick. I never have to weigh my options. Which defeats the whole purpose of having multiple weapons.

That means that the best way to play the game, is the most repetetive. And the least fun. That only gets worse on higher difficulties. Just saying that I can use non-headshot weapons if I want, is lazy design. Because it shows you're not thinking about balance. Or at least not nearly enough. I could also only use melee. Or turn on the infinite ammo cheat. But it's not about what I "can" do. It's about what I "should" do, to play the best, under the game's rules. It's your job as a designer to make the best way to play, the most fun. Or maybe you just think that using the same two weapons, for the whole map, actually is the most fun way to play. It isn't for me. If you asked everyone here, I'd guess a lot would say the same.

I'm not trying to attack CMT. I just want SPV3 to be fun to play, instead of just fun to see. A lot of the stuff seems like it could be fun. Like Armor Abilities. But then I read about stuff like the Brutes. Which seem more like solutions in search of problems. Making decisions just "because it seems cool," or because an idea popped into your head. That doesn't mean something can't be cool. And it definitely doesn't mean you can't have ideas. But just because it's new, doesn't mean it makes things better. You have to think about how it affects what's already there. And that because you have something new, doesn't mean something else suffers. Or that just because it's new, I'll want to use it for more than a couple of minutes.

*Only saying that because they have the marine anims.

they are bungie trying to make an improvement to the game better than 343i

I don't see why people always complain going, "Oh mi geeerrrd!" " Why would you guys even make these weapons do 3 hit head shot while this gun only does 2, then we won't even use the other because we would totally only use these other one that only does 1 to 2 hit head shot!?!!" "This gun shoots faster then this gun so, so we would all just use this gun with this other gun that does 2 to 1 hit head shot all the time!" "CMT and 343, you guyz R DuMB anD retarDed cUZ your weaPOns aRe UnBALanced!!!111!!" "Oh mI GeEEeerRrD!"

I got an idea! Why don't CMT just make all the weapons do the same fire rate, splash damage, reload, ammo count, zoom, and do the same amount of damage to everything! Then it would be sooo balanced because then everyone would have a fair chance to do the same amount of damage with the same range of attack, then no one would choose a different weapon over another! While they are at it, they should totally make everything have the same speed and animation with the same hit boxes too! And maybe make all the weapons look the same too so that then people won't choose one gun over the other because they don't like how one looks over the other and that they would all get in the way of the screen the same and not more then the other! Such balance! Much needed! MUST HAVE! cMT SuX aNd ThIeR BaLANce sUx!1!! GO b@LanCEd WEapoNS aNd GaMePLay!!!!!111!!

You guys are just busy complaining about weapons and enemy competition against you and about the damn shields so just be thankful that the fcking maps wouldn't have no enemies and just the scenery so enjoy it when releases.
Edited by raphaelBLOOD WAR on May 25, 2014 at 10:32 AM
Edited by raphaelBLOOD WAR on May 25, 2014 at 10:49 AM

Guns that are headshot-capable offer this ability as a reward for precision and accuracy. You can kill things vey quickly, assuming every shot hits exactly where it's supposed to. In-game, these ideal circumstances are not always met. Other weapons, while lacking the ability to instantly incapacitate, often have higher ammo capacities and the ability to provide greater volumes of fire.

Not every weapon is available at every point in the campaign, and ammo isn't a limitless resource. From time to time, your favorite weapon will run out, at which point you can replace it with whatever else is available or use it as a cudgel.

If you're the kind of person who can consistently score twelve headshots with a 12-round mag througout the entirety of a campaign, then the pistol may very well be the best choice for you, provided it's available. But not everyone plays that way. Every Halo game has had headshot-capable weaponry, without game-breakingly disasterous results. I'm quite partial to the Spiker, myself. It might not be able to insta-kill Grunts, but it's a bit easier to just pump tungsten into center-of-mass and pick up ammo from fallen Brutes than it is to line up headshots with a BR and hope there's a cache of compatible ammunition along the way.
Edited by Echo77 on May 25, 2014 at 02:31 PM

I'm kinda with prophet of charity on this one. Automatic and non-headshot weapons always seem to get the sort end of the stick. It would be nice if automatic weapons had some sort of extended functionality like headshot weapons do. Something that rewards players for using them as well. Maybe something like every shot landed in a row with an automatic weapon without missing a shot would actually increase the damage of the shot after it. Like combos in early fighting games. But I digress, and I'm pretty sure that functionality is impossible in CE anyway.

Each gun needs to reward players equally, but in different ways. And this just doesn't seem to hold up in this situation (Especially when additional ammo seems to be the only reason one can come up with to even consider an automatic over a burst fire weapon, which is pathetic when the gun is designed to burn through ammo [which automatics in early fps's are designed to do]). This is probably why the majority of today's shooters have given the headshot ability to ALL weapons of the spectrum to deal with the problem of which we are debating (in addition to adding "realism" [though we all know games aren't realistic in the slightest, so lets not go down that road]). If it were up to me though, I would've opted to take the time to find a counterbalance for each weapon class, like the example I spit-balled above. But again, I digress.

My point is, of course headshot weapons are OP in this situation. The headshot mechanic was exciting and new in early pc/console shooters like halo, but were definitely overpowered. It's why this concept has been altered or abandoned in just about all of today's shooters. There are a few games that have made it work, but halo 1 wasn't one of them, and CMT is trying to replicate halo 1's gameplay, but with a larger arsenal and additions to gameplay. That being said, they've probably come as close as possible to balancing H1's headshot system, but it will probably never be completely balanced.

Maybe automatic weapons can all get some level of stunning ability, slowing down or stopping targets with sustained fire.

That would be cool. The gears of war games have a mechanic like that, come to think of it.

I actually implemented something like that in my own maps (that I haven't posted yet), it's quite simple and CMT can surely do it.

Edited by Echo77 on May 26, 2014 at 06:33 PM

Also, are we going to be seeing things like Flood infection forms turning characters into combat forms like they do in-game in Halo 3?

Personally, I'd like to see a more freaky version of this.

same

And what would make encountering it even more haunting would be if the T&R control room would be almost completely black, lit only by the flames, sparks, flood gas, and malfunctioning control panels.

Masterz, I kind of agree with ProphetOfCharity. He raises a lot of points and has a unique perception I haven't seen on this forum in a while. I'm not going to rant but is any of what he suggested possible? We are talking about a relatively old game here.

That could help. But it doesn't really solve the problem. Which is that automatic weapons all kill more slowly, than headshot weapons.

In the end, it comes down to how quickly the weapon kills. The Sniper Rifle is harder to use, than the Battle Rifle. But nobody will pick up a Battle Rifle, if they could pick a Sniper Rifle, instead. Because the Sniper Rifle kills more quickly. The only limit is ammo, because it's a power weapon. But I don't think the CMT Battle Rifle, the CMT Pistol, and any other CMT headshot weapons, are all power weapons. So ammo won't be an issue. Especially since there are apparently so many.

This problem really wasn't in Halo 1. In Halo 1, only the Pistol, and Sniper Rifle, were headshot weapons. And the Sniper Rifle was rare, and didn't have much ammo. Outisde of Truth & Reconciliation, which was just a one-off. So the Pistol was the only headshot weapon, that you'd use most of the time. So chances are you'd carry at least one non-headshot weapon, most of the time. But that's not all.

Other Halo 1 weapons, killed faster than the Pistol, in certain situations. The Needler could kill Elites more quickly, because of the super combine. The Assault Rifle could kill lots of Grunts, and Jackals, because of the high rate of fire. The Plasma Rifle, and Plasma Pistol, stripped shields more quickly. The Pistol was still better at mid to long range. Especially against Grunts, and Jackals. But the Needler was better at mid range, against Elites. And the Assault Rifle was better at close range, against Grunts and Jackals. And the Plasma Rifle could make the Pistol, or Assault Rifle, even better, at close to mid range. And the Shotgun, and Sniper Rifle, were better at short, and long range.

Don't misread that. It's not about "range." It's that there are situations, where each weapon kills more enemies, more quickly, than all the other weapons. And, importantly, those situations happen all the time.

Halo 2, and onward, changed that, by adding more headshot weapons. And focusing on them. Because there are more headshot weapons, it's easier to carry nothing else. And in Halo 2 and 3, automatics being dual-wieldable, except the Halo 3 Assault Rifle, made them even worse. Since they were only good when you gave up grenades, by dual-wielding them. Even the Halo 3 Assault Rifle was still worse, than the Battle Rifle. Because unlike the Halo 1 Assault Rifle, it wasn't better in any situation, than the Battle Rifle. And then Reach made automatics even worse. And headshot weapons even better. So the removal of dual-wielding didn't matter. And Halo 4 wasn't much different, except for a better Needler. Since most of the new weapons were power weapons. Not to mention in Halo 2, and Reach, Brutes were weaker to headshots. Which meant even less reason to use non-headshot weapons.

So the CMT weapons, and enemies, aren't sounding like Halo 1. They're sounding like all Halo games, except Halo 1. Now, I still really enjoy other Halo games. If CMT wants to go that way, that's their choice. But they said they want to be like Halo 1. And having all these headshot weapons, that kill all units more quickly, than non-headshot weapons, isn't like Halo 1.

You could make Brutes less weak to headshots, instead of more. Have both shields, and the helmet. That way, the Brutes still have a unique setup. But automatics will kill them more quickly than headshots. So I now have a reason to use non-headshot weapons. I don't have a list of all CMT weapons, or what they do. But the CMT SMG could stay like the Halo 1 Assault Rifle, and be better against lots of Grunts, and Jackals. Then the CMT Assault Rifle could be buffed. So that it kills Elites, and Brutes, more quickly than a headshot weapon would, with a headshot. But with a rate of fire slow enough that the SMG is better, against Grunts and Jackals. That would still be weird with the Needler. Since that's what the Needler also does. But it would be a start.

I know I'm writing long posts. I don't mean to. But if I'm thinking about CMT weapons, and enemies, more than CMT, that doesn't sound good for CMT.

"Even the Halo 3 Assault Rifle was still worse, than the Battle Rifle."
I'm pretty sure the MA5C deals more damage than the BR55HB SR. The battle rifle can /potentially/ kill a target more quickly, but that's assuming you score a headshot.

On paper, a headshot-capable weapon can kill more quickly than other weapons. But that's assuming everyone is a headshot honcho. Automatics are convenient, general-purpose weapons.

"You could make Brutes less weak to headshots, instead of more. Have both shields, and the helmet. That way, the Brutes still have a unique setup. But automatics will kill them more quickly than headshots."

If an automatic weapon could kill more quickly than a weapon that's intended to kill via cranial evacuation, then what would be the point of ever picking up a headshot weapon? There wouldn't be one, because you could just mag-dump an automatic into center-of-mass and get the job done better than you could have if you'd taken the time to line up a shot to the head. The purpose of the headshot is to reward players for their precision against single targets. Automatics are supposed to be versatile, easy to use, and effective against massed and/or quick-moving targets. Complaining that headshots are overpowered in singleplayer seems to me like saying, "My accuracy is so good in any and all situations that it is ruining my campaign experience."


"So the CMT weapons, and enemies, aren't sounding like Halo 1. They're sounding like all Halo games, except Halo 1. Now, I still really enjoy other Halo games. If CMT wants to go that way, that's their choice. But they said they want to be like Halo 1. And having all these headshot weapons, that kill all units more quickly, than non-headshot weapons, isn't like Halo 1."
It's their own take on the Combat Evolved campaign, as I understand it. It's not supposed to mimic the original campaign. There were no Brutes, battle rifles, or armor abilities in Halo 1.
Edited by Echo77 on May 27, 2014 at 09:05 PM

I had armor abilities personally. Sprint is the only good one. Quick rant, If spartans relied so much on armor abilities and power ups, well, that doesn't sound very spartan like. I make a connection with Greek spartans. They had a shield, a sword, armor, and whatever skills they physically possessed. IMO, Armor permutations make the Spartans sound like giant {v}.

I definitely disagree with this. Automatics aren't newby weapons, they're not supposed to be simplistic, nor are headshot weapons supposed to be for rewarding precision and skill, at least not entirely. The only hierarchy weapons should ever have (if any) is power weapons>standard weapons>sidearms, NOT headshots>automatics. Both weapons should take equal amounts of skill (in different areas however, automatics rewarding precision and headshots rewarding accuracy [precision and accuracy are not the same thing, mind you]) and reward the player equally. They should have different situational advantages in which one kills quicker than another, but be balanced by the fact that they are therefore equally useful. They are on the same level, and one should be inclined to pick whatever standard weapon suits their PLAY STYLE, not their skill.
Edited by Delicon20 on May 28, 2014 at 12:44 AM

I guess that kind of happens when you've been formulaically playing Halo for 13 years.

It's the 26th Century. If they had to rely on the skills they physically possessed, they wouldn't be cybernetic supersoldiers who'd undergone physiology-enhancing augmentations. Armor abilities are just another piece of equipment, another technological asset, as much as a rifle or a jeep. Gameplay-wise, I guess I can see why you might not like them: I pretty much only used Sprint in Reach, as well. But as far as whether or not it's "Spartan like," I think they fit in just as well as anything else does.

I've been informed there's a balance discussion going on in this thread

To assist and enlighten I've been asked by siliconmaster (I think he goes by slashrat here) to drop some empirical stats from actual Halo games. Particularly relevant to the topic at hand would seem to be the Assault Rifle; so, I present some hard facts about the gun in its various incarnations here, without bias, prejudice, or intent to support/discredit any particular parties

HALO 1
-Deals 0.7x reduced damage to Elite shields
-Accuracy beings at a 2.0 degree spread, deteriorates over 0.6 seconds (9 shots' worth) to 6.0 degrees
-Kills Elite minors as quickly as a best-case Pistol headshot (within 0.2 seconds), kills Elite majors ~0.5-1.0 seconds more quickly than best-case Pistol headshot
-Kills a Grunt minor on Normal in 0.20 seconds w/ 3 shots; kills a Grunt major on Heroic in 0.53 seconds w/ 8 shots

HALO 2
unaccounted for (technically it was turned into the SMG but)

HALO 3
-No damage modifiers
-DPS is precisely equivalent to a single SMG
-Accuracy starts at 0.10 degree spread, deteriorates after 3 shots to rough equivalent of a single SMG (1.25 to 3.00 degrees)
-Kills all Brutes at least 0.5 seconds more slowly than best-case Battle Rifle headshot, up to 2.0 seconds more slowly and beyond as difficulty increases
-Kills a Grunt minor on Normal in 0.40 seconds w/ 4 shots; kills a Grunt major on Heroic in 0.90 seconds w/ 9 shots

HALO REACH
-No damage modifiers
-DPS is decreased relative to Halo 3 (from 75.00 to ~63.11)
-Starting accuracy is slightly worse -- from 0.10 spread in H3 to 0.30 -- but takes longer to deteriorate to a milder max cap of 2.50 degrees
-Kills all Elites 0.4-0.6 seconds more slowly than best-case DMR headshot
-Kills Brute minors 1.5-2.0 seconds more slowly than best-case DMR headshot, Brute captians (major equivalent) 3.0+ seconds more slowly than best-case DMR headshot
-Kills a Grunt minor on Normal in 0.59 seconds w/ 6 shots; kills a Grunt major on Heroic in 0.92 seconds w/ 9 shots

HALO 4
-No damage modifiers
-DPS increased back to Halo 3 equivalent
-Accuracy recieves insigificant modification from Reach (0.15 degree to 2.45 degree spread)
-Kills all Elites ~0.6 seconds more quickly than best-case DMR headshot on Normal, ~as quickly as best-case DMR headshot on Heroic
-Kills a Grunt minor on Normal in 0.40 seconds w/ 4 shots; kills a Grunt major on Heroic in 1.10 seconds w/ 11 shots

---

I'd also like to leave everybody on the note that the Plasma Rifle does not receive any damage penalty against any materials other than unshielded Spartans & Elites in Halo 2 and onward (no penalty against H3 Brutes), and only unshielded Spartans in Halo 1; and, it is equivalent in DPS to the SMG in Halos 2 & 3 once rate of fire accelerates (0.6 seconds, 3 shots' worth)

There is some good points made on both sides here. It is my opinion, that our headshot weapons do not it into Prophets "overpowered" category, at least not on Legendary and Noble difficulties. I find myself needing to conserve headshot ammo to take down lighter targets, while finding some other secondary weapon to combat shielded enemies and brutes when playing on Legendary and especially Noble. Lets look at our 4 non power headshot weapons...

Pistol- 8 round clip, fast ROF close range, stock mid to long range.

BR- Low damage vs shields, large cone for headshot with burst fire, weak "headshot only" single shot capable when zoomed.

DMR:Low autoaim value identical of sniper rifle, 5x zoom, 15 round clip, larger error cone, damage equivalent of H1 Pistol.

Particle Carbine: high rof, low damage, damage boost vs shields. Heat based mechanic results in penalty for spamming of shots.

None of these weapons, or even 2 of these weapons held at the same time, are ideal for long term usage as a primary weapon in encounters. They all have their setbacks, and to use them exclusively will only be frustrating and leave you low on ammo. The BR or pistol are ideally what you'd want to cary for short to mid range, and the particle carbine or DMR for extended ranges. A good player will want to cary a weapon best suited for head shots in their situation, and a secondary weapon to deal with whatever challenges they are having most difficult with.

Well jumping in the convo here, I understand the points given, but to play with the normal tagset I would just play halo Combat Evolved. If I see a mod from the normal campaign I expect different weapon tagset and different strategies rather than the old stale: shoot, hide, throw grenade,reload, repeat, which gets boring in 2 mins of gameplay and requires no skill.

I prefer a fun map loads with weapons.

Also what is a particle carbine????

Agreed to an extent. Sprint is mainly the only armor ability i ever use because the rest kind of take away from skill (Ex: Amor Lock, Health Regen shield) Now the permutations I can see as a real technological advancement like you said are H4 Forerunner vision, Active Camo, and Jet/Thruster pack. The rest are pointless. Sprint isn't really an armor ability, even without a technological advancement, any person can sprint as hard as they can for a limited time. As for being cybernetic solders, all they did was make bones unbreakable, multiply their strength, and enhance their bodies to be capable of using the armor. I don't know about y'all but if by the 26th century we have to have a patch to run as fast as we can, well i guess obesity won this century haha

I wasn't a fan of how the AA's were done in reach. You can do any of our missions without using the AA's. Most of them I found in reach left you waiting for them to recharge and just slowed the game down. The only 2 ones that perform similarly are our Active Camo and Reflex Booster. The rest are available on demand as you press Q regardless of their charge state (VISR, Sprint), or are just passive (Regen, Radar).