Haha, cheers man!

Gotta fix the topology now:

Cheddars made a MAC.

MAC and cheese.

The rear peephole is a bit too small at the moment, and the grip seems like it might be a little on the small side (it may also just be the angle of the image), but everything else seems spot-on. I hope to see more realworld weaponry from you in the future.

*cough*SKS*cough*

Lol thanks.

Yeah that hole in the iron sights looks way too small for me as well, as small as altheros's a-hole in fact. Ill try fix it today as I just noticed I forgot the switch for fire modes. I was thinking of doing the m40a5 or vss next but yeah I'll look into the SKS.

Looks pretty good cheddars my boy... but please try modelling something that doesn't already exist xD

Thanks man. lol yeah it is pretty generic.

@BkTiel XD It started out as a block out but half way through I realized it would probably be better just to use a Photoshop filter for normal maps (Too much effort).
Edited by Cheddars on Jun 20, 2014 at 02:53 AM

The model doesn't look half bad, but the position of the left hand just doesn't seem quite right. Also, to my knowledge, the AK-12 wasn't adopted by the Russian military. They're still using the AK-74M, AK-74, and to a lesser extent, the older AKM.
Edited by Echo77 on Jun 29, 2014 at 01:30 PM

Other sources say the same thing. That's why you don't see the Russians in Crimea toting AK-12s.

It's also nice that you're, well, trying to research this, but at the end of the day who really cares? We see the AN-94 in every Battlefield game since Bad Company and no one's complained yet. Personally I'd rather have a unique and interesting weapon (even if not accurate to irl!) than more AK-47 rehash. It gets old.

The AK-12 is another AK derivative. You're not going to get away from AK rehash if you intend to incorporate a modern Russian service rifle, because they've been using variations of the AK platform for the last sixty years. The AN-94 does see limited use amongst the Russian military, even though it's not general issue. The AK-12, on the other hand, hasn't been adopted to any capacity that I'm aware of.

The guy making the Chernobyl map is trying to make an accurate replica of the city. He's using photographs as references in an effort to make it as true-to-life as possible. Does it matter if it's an accurate recreation, as long as it's unique and interesting? Maybe not, but that's what he's going for. If you know how something is supposed to be, there's no harm in striving to make it that way. Even Combat Evolved did this in some regards:

Edited by Echo77 on Jun 29, 2014 at 02:19 PM
Edited by Echo77 on Jun 29, 2014 at 02:21 PM

I think you know quite well what I meant when I said that.

Moving on to the rest of your post, if we're arguing game design philosophy, authenticity is never going to be your first priority. Your second, surely, but first and foremost must be objective playability. In the example you provided, such a thing does not infringe on gameplay, and so the opportunity for staying true to real life factors was present and taken.

How much of those you do make use of is very much variable depending on your audience. It's really a constant balancing act. In this particular instance I am of the belief that the absolute 'how it's supposed to be' point of view you're vouching for is something that's going to compromise the map's potential to keep a player engaged through unique assets and interesting mechanics. It's something to strive for, yes, but not at the expense of the latter.

Having an AK-74 (or -74M) instead of an AK-12 will in no way compromise the map's potential. CE has neither an AK-74 or an AK-12, so in either case it will be a unique asset. The AK-12 doesn't really have any "interesting mechanics" that the player could take advantage of in-game, unless there's going to be an option to allow the player to shoot left-handed instead of right-handed. It is essentially an ambidextrous Kalashnikov with rails and a folding stock.

I've watched people argue about the most realistic approach to snow/ice and cliffs, how colorful/shiny armor should be, whether or not assault rifles should have yellow stripes, and whether or not Covenant weaponry should look like it's painted or made of colored metal, and how scratchy the hallways in the Pillar of Autumn should be, none of which affect gameplay in the slightest. People argue about "how it's supposed to be" all the time in regards to textures, bitmaps, scenery, and BSP, and yet it seems that any time I bring up small arms, people immediately dismiss it with, "Woah, it's just a game, bro, it doesn't matter as long as the functionality is there."

In custom maps where realism is always a tertiary concern (or not a concern at all), does an attempt at realism not then become unique?
Edited by Echo77 on Jun 29, 2014 at 03:22 PM

An AK-74 is virtually identical to an AK-47, to the point where many movie producers use them as substitutes for one another when it comes to props. Whereas an AK-12 has an interesting aesthetic that has hardly been exploited (see the 'unique assets' part of that sentence). To maybe smudge what I'd like to think has been a pretty solid standpoint so far, this is the same reason you don't see custom maps using the classic tagset played that often. You can have another that's functionally identical yet players will still find it more engaging due to fresh looks and/or sounds.



You're talking about environments, first off, the detailing of which can convey very different themes to a level. That's pretty important. When it comes to your other examples, that's by and large just friction over just what is authentic when it comes to Halo. Most of the people here are seemingly very afraid to step outside the boundaries of that, so to stay as close to the source material as possible is pretty much a given.

Whereas when it comes to modern firearms, it really doesn't matter at all. The audience here isn't primarily composed of gun buffs, so that's not something you need to address - it's superseded by the desire to keep a map fun and enjoyable for the end user. The same does not hold true for those seeking to make a Halo map in a community of nitpickers.

I hope that explained the mentality a bit there. I'm not trying to belittle your knowledge here, I just don't think whether the Russian Army has adopted a rifle or not is really that important in the overall scheme of things regarding an entirely fictional scenario of supersoldiers fighting one another in the shadow of a destroyed nuclear reactor.

e:

Compared to the hundreds of FPS games currently using that aspect as a sales pitch? I'd doubt it. If you're saying just here, then I'd say that uniqueness would come at the price of overall ambiguity.
Edited by BKTiel on Jun 29, 2014 at 03:34 PM

There were a number of improvements made between the AKM and the AK-74, but that's probably not a discussion for this particular situation in this particular thread. I can elaborate via private messages if you'd like. Movies also have to make do with what's cheapest/what they can get their hands on at the time (many Russian films used captured German StG-44 assault rifles from World War II with slight visual modifications as substitutes for American M16s, simply because they were easier to get a hold of than actual M16s). 3D models don't really have that same constraint: if you can model an AK-12, you can model an AK-74M. If you can find an AK-12 to rip, you can probably find an AK-74 to rip.

I understand the mentality, that's why I try to supply information in regards to realworld small arms, because I realize this community isn't a community of gun enthusiasts. I just think it's a weird line to draw, that an authentic Halo map should be scrutinized down to the most minute detail, but maps based on reality should be free from such scrutiny simply because much of the community just doesn't know any better.
Edited by Echo77 on Jun 29, 2014 at 03:51 PM
Edited by Echo77 on Jun 29, 2014 at 03:52 PM

Most of the serious consideration for the AK-12 is being done by law enforcement and civilian markets.

The AK-platform, particularly variations of the older models like the AKM, is the most widespread small arm in the world. That's why they're "overused". It's like saying the M6-series of sidearms is overused in Halo, because a variation of it appears in every single Halo game. It's a hipster-esque mindset: "Well, sure, it's a great platform and all, but it's too mainstream and not obscure enough for my tastes."

If we absolutely must have something underused and unique, then I can supply some images of Cold War-era prototypes that have little-to-no relation to the Kalashnikov-series that were quite interesting.
Edited by Echo77 on Jun 29, 2014 at 04:26 PM

Actually, that could be pretty cool. Cold War map, Cold War tagset?

Though I'd like to point out that even the M6 got updates between games; some that even affected how it handled. It isn't so much about obscurity as it is providing a fresh experience.

I'm assuming most of the differences between -74 and AKM are in the firing mechanics?

Differences between the AK-74 and the AKM include the switch from 7.62x39mm to 5.45x39mm, bakelite (a type of orange-ish polymer) magazines, differences in the stock and buttpad, changes to the gas block, and the addition of a muzzle brake/flash hider. The receiver (the bit that houses the "firing mechanics") is actually pretty much the same as the AKM (though the AKM itself has a number of improvements over AK-47).

I'll see if I can come up various prototypes that might be able to fulfill whatever roles might be necessary, and then I'll post them here.
Edited by Echo77 on Jun 29, 2014 at 04:48 PM

That would be redundant. You'd have two 5.45x39mm assault rifles with the same barrel length, both feeding from 30-round magazines and firing roughly 650 rounds per minute. In terms of gameplay, it only makes sense to have one or the other. My point of view was that the one that's currently in service (AK-74M), or the one that was in service at the time of the Chernobyl disaster (AK-74) would be the most sensible choice, while Tiel felt that it didn't matter because players just want something new and different. There was no flaming involved throughout the course of the discussion.

@Tiel, in regards to Cold War prototypes and potential in-game roles:
•A number of TKB-022 variants, one of which could fill the role of carbine or "submachine gun".
•Triple-barreled, bullpup 7.62x39mm Korobov assault rifle, which could be one of the map's lesser "power weapons". All three barrels fired simultaneously and fed from a 90-round magazine that was essentially three 30-round mags stuck together side-by-side.
•TKB-011 assault rifle. Bullpup, 7.62x39mm. Also capable of accepting 50-round magazines.
•KS-23 shotgun variants. While they're not prototypes, I've not seen any examples of the bullpup conversion in a video game before. They fire 23mm shot shells, which is roughly 6.27 gauge, compared to the typical 12 gauge (~18.5mm) shot shell utilized by most shotguns. I don't know if the bullpup model can, but the conventional configurations can also fire large, cylindrical rifle grenades. This, of course, would fulfill the role of shotgun. A very large, very powerful shotgun.
•SVS-14, which appears to be an SKS-based marksman rifle. I assume it's 7.62x39mm, like the SKS. This would fulfill a similar role to Halo's DMR.
•Model 1958 Sniper Rifle. 7.62x54mmR. It appears to be based on the SVT-40, which would lead me to believe that it's semi-automatic. The bolt looks a bit like something you'd find on a bolt-action, though. I'll have to research it further.
•Baryshev AVB (7.62R), which would probably function much like the American BAR in World War II: a relatively high-caliber support weapon with a lower magazine capacity than contemporary assault rifles. It appears to have a 10-round magazine.
•Various RPGs, one of which, of course, would serve as the map's heavy weapon.

That would cover almost all the basic roles, as well as a few more niche weapons, and none of them appear in any other video game as far as I'm aware, which gives them a +2 obscurity/uniqueness bonus.
Edited by Echo77 on Jun 29, 2014 at 08:21 PM

I want marry echo and have guns with him. xD

If your interested I can do the firing effects.

Let me know what type of star pattern you are going for, and toss me the tag so I can work on it.

I don't leak, ask spartan314

Or you can be his best-est friend in the whole wide universe.

I am sure he has others, plus us halo mappers never really trust each other unless we compare dick sizes on skype.

I guess if your not face 2 face then you are avoided like a can of iron mace

@Mysteryb0y

I'll be honest and say that your origins for the gun are terrible. The gun is way too far off to the right and too close to the screen. It makes the gun seem too big and it also looks as if the gun is slapped to the side of your helmet rather than being shouldered. The Left hand is also awkwardly placed. Tilt the hand a bit towards the screen and relax the thumb. Having the thumb up like that is uncomfortable (trust me I've tried doing it for the sake of explaining to somebody else, its bad).

Here's a good example of how you would place the left hand

Given I disagree with how far down the thumb is, I would say that's roughly how you would have the hand look.

Here's another picture to help with the off screen side of the gun.

Notice the way the fingers are positioned and how low the gunman's elbows are. Try to keep that in mind when making your origins. A comfortable looking origins makes your animations have a lot more visual impact to those playing with the weapon.

Experiment a bit as well and throw a bit of style in there. Style is very important when doing halo animations

Keeping the thumb over the vent in the handguard would get a bit toasty after a few rounds.

What's the benefit over using a 3D model of a spent cartridge over using a sprite? Are you going to add the primer and make it look more like brass or steel?

A buttstroke might be a better melee animation than the current one, a swift smack with the stock. Your current melee looks like the player would be trying to hit them with the magazine.
Edited by Echo77 on Jun 30, 2014 at 06:04 PM

I got my own ump.45 in game. It sucks lady nipples but the animations aren't that bad.

If you want I can send you the data files. So you can see how I did my animations.

And I could edit your animation max files too if need be.


BTW, I am not so sure about bullet's being used in place of the generic sprites, I understand that you require different types of bullets for different weapons, and you can't always be using the generic pistol ans shotgun shell.

But the firing animation tends to skip a little, depending how, and for halo you depress the trigger. (left click)

Could use the 7.62x51mm sprites for the spent casings from the MA5B. They're not 7.62x39mm or 5.45x39mm, but that I don't think anyone would notice.

How does it affect immersion? In regards to looking better, at the moment it just looks like a gold cylinder, but I understand that it's a work in progress. One advantage of using sprites over 3D casings is that sprites are a lot more common when it comes to casings in CE. An AK that ejects sprite casings will fit in with most any other modern weapon tag that ejects sprite casings, whereas an AK with 3D casings would seem out of place amongst anything but a tagset in which all weapons ejected 3D casings.

Edit: You should probably have it eject to the right if the operator is firing right-handed. In your current picture, it's ejecting to the left.
Edited by Echo77 on Jun 30, 2014 at 06:57 PM

did you say you know how to make animation permutations?

I have been trying to figure that out forever!

Is it possib;e to make 3 different melee anims and have them all show up in game then?

Very simple.
Name anims like this:
first-person melee%0
first-person melee%1
first-person melee%2

Dunno if #3 will play but #2 should.
Edited by Dumb AI on Jun 30, 2014 at 08:08 PM

I didn't say you shouldn't enjoy it, I just asked why you felt it was more enjoyable given its disadvantages compared to sprites. I was asking for supporting details as to why you hold your particular perspective after providing supporting details as to why I held my particular perspective.

All I can do is judge what's been shown. If you don't want people criticisizing the older version, post the current version. All we have to go off of is what we've been shown so far.
Edited by Echo77 on Jul 1, 2014 at 12:10 PM

Can I see a render of your animations?

If you're reloading from empty, you'll need to pull the charging handle after the magazine has been inserted. Also keep in mind that AK magazines (typically) don't just slot straight up into the receiver, you have to insert them at a bit of an angle and rock them back into place.

Ah, my mistake, I thought that's what "reload-full" meant.

9 / 10

Someone should make a optimizing script.

Which deletes the faces of the gun which are not seen by the player.