Protecting is for people who care way too much about custom content, especially in an old game.

Why is that even a question?
He just put this up to show it's possible, not to have a big debate whether to release or not.

You are partially wrong sir. He asked questions at the beginning so it counts as questions. And i think he edited out about asking about releasing or not.... i think i remembered seeing that somewhere. I think.... Pretty sure....

What did you guys expect would happen when he made a thread like this?

Cheers for the title, except i already have someone who baits for me. On another note, Everything is owned by 'Bungie', as they created the game and therefore nothing is exactly "yours".

This wasn't to determine whether I'd release or not. Read my first post.
I wanted to open ripping up for discussion, since there's no one person who can speak for all.

Its possible, yes. Let this motivate others to try own solutions to crack <protection>.
But discussion on effects plus community opinion was important to me.

Thank you all for the input!
Now we know its possible and where some people stand.

Edited by darknesssamurai on May 6, 2012 at 03:54 AM

I think you're NOT going to release it.

There has been a program available on halomaps since 11/23/10 that can unprotect HEK+ maps....

http://hce.halomaps.org/index.cfm?fid=5601

There are programs available all over the web that can unprotect halo maps... If you want to make your own program just download OS and code up a tag extractor.


Simple halomaps search for unprotect maps: http://hce.halomaps.org/index.cfm?search=unprotect+maps&B1=Search

Lol, you can copyright that Dennis. You are mistaking it for what, Trademark law?

Copyright is a grey area, you do have to 'stand out' from the crowd, but you can copyright things that 'have somewhat similiarties', just look at the smartphone copyright documentations.

If I make a completely new 3d model, not copying any other design previously made. If I put that in Halo I still hold the copyright. I dont lose the copyright of that design and I don't lose the copyright, rights to publish the design in any form. Look at paintings, a painter paints a painting, holds copyright and then sells prints. No one can then copy those prints and sell them, because they'd be breaking the copyright of the original painting design.

Dennis, you have been muddying the waters of Halo copyright knowledge for years.

Also for those fools who, may reply with "but your not making money", I may as well state now that money does not need to be involved in regards to copyright infringement.
Edited by Limited on May 28, 2012 at 08:30 AM

Read the EULA please k thanks

You mean EulaHEK.rtf? The one that ends with: If this product was acquired outside the United States, then local laws may apply.

That doesn't mention anything.

Are you just making hypothetical arguements? or are we discussing something in particular here?
The 3ds max model that you create and copyright is yours. If you put that model ingame, the gbx model can be used by Msoft.

Edited by Maniac1000 on May 28, 2012 at 10:22 AM

No I was very specific in that anything you make for or from the Halo game can not be copyrighted because the intellectual property is already copyrighted and the license for the game does not relinquish that copyright but specifically enforces it.
If the content is made for or from the game then there is no gray area at all it is covered under the original copyright for the intellectual property.
The assumption here is that it is clearly an original design and not a re-make of a previously copyrighted design like a new battle rifle or a Spartan model and that you can obtain a copyright to that material in the first place nor was it made specifically for use in the game.

If so then no you don't lose the original copyright, I never said you do, to that original design but as I have said before; by putting it into the game without obtaining a distribution license with Microsoft, you assign use of that copyright over to the Halo game and Microsoft and are therefore subject to the terms and conditions set by Microsoft for that game and thereby lose any control over its use within the Halo game; Including other people using that copyrighted material within the game. You as the copyright holder cannot sue Joe game user for copyright infringement within the scope of the Halo game when you willingly assigned your copyright over to use within the game.

I have been very clear and consistent on what I have been saying since it is the information I obtained from my law firm when I started this website. Copyright issues are complex and the mudding comes from people’s incomplete understanding of the issue.

But to simplify it “if you make something for or from the Halo game you can't copyright it.”
Absolutely true, making money is not a requirement for violating a copyright and since it is up to the copyright holder to file the claim, it is only one reason why they would.

Basically,you own the original model that you made but the GBX Model you put into a map is owned by MS.

Yes, we are assuming it is a brand new design and you are the sole owner of that IP (which in my case is true, as a UK citizen). You stated that you assign the use of that copyrighted material within the Halo game. Yes that is true, in its current state. I.e, tags within the map file.


Decompling the map to get to the tags therefore breaks this rule of the EULA, which breaks the license of having said map file. Which then, is breaking the copyright.

I still cant find where it says MS is given the copyright once you compile, anyone know where it is? It definitely wasnt in the EULA when you install HEK.


As I would be providing the models, I would be classed as a supplier and I would have the rights.
Edited by Limited on May 28, 2012 at 12:26 PM

No and no. Confused?

For this discussion ownership is not the issue when it comes to intellectual property such as a 3D model design. It is all about the copyright or protecting and controlling the use of that intellectual property (3D model, game level …etc). So let’s assume you design a unique unicorn beast 3D model then file and obtain a copyright for it. You now have protection from unlicensed use of that 3D model. If you post it on a website maybe your website, you still have legal protection and can sue anyone who downloads it and uses it in a game or video without obtaining a license.

However, if you then take that model and put it into the Halo game or any game to use within that game you are legally assigning your copyright over for use to the entity that has the copyright to that game and cannot sue someone who uses it in the game or a video or picture made from the game.

You still own the copyright for the 3D model and if someone else uses it in a different video or game, not made from the game you put the model in, you can sue them for unlicensed use but once you put it into another collective work you legally assign your copyright over for use in that work.

In the case of Halo Microsoft does not then "own" the 3D Unicorn model but the copyright protecting it is wiling assigned over to Microsoft for it use and is then covered under Microsoft’s usage rules.

Still confused?

To "muddy the waters" even further if you make a 3d Model of a Halo Spartan you can "own" the 3D model but you can't copyright it because Microsoft has a copyright to that design and concept. So if you post that model on a website and someone uses it you can't sue them because you don't have a copyright for it.

Your logic is flawed, the copyright protection is not broken or abrogated when the license is violated. The copyright still stands
It is within copyright law where a person willingly assigns his copyrighted material to a collective work he assigns over the use for that collective work.

You are only a supplier if you have a previous agreement with the company and you do not.

Ahem, map files are not a part of the PRODUCT. A PRODUCT being a commercially sold piece of software published and supplied by the license holders. You, as a map creator are not a legal license holder within Microsoft, nor are you legally registered as a third party content supplier for the product owned by Microsoft.

You break the EULA license, which in turn means you are then not licenced to use the game and its materials (including the map file that has your 3d model in). Which if you then use it unlicensed, you are breaking the copyright law.


Yes, but they still hold the copyright for the files and they control the usage of the 3d model. I.e, only can be used in Halo and cannot be copied, distributed etc etc (outside of its current state = map file), like I said earlier...


The EULA surrounds all the materials in the software product, therefore they have to agree to the EULA to use your content too, they break that EULA (in any way) and they also lose the license to your 3d model.

P.S. Dont see this as me arguing with you Dennis, more of a debate :)
Edited by Limited on May 28, 2012 at 12:55 PM

Jaz, they are included within the software product, and they are licenced under the EULA.
Edited by Limited on May 28, 2012 at 12:57 PM

I don’t see this as an argument at all. It is a very worthwhile discussion.

I misunderstood what you were meaning. In either case the assignment of the copyright by the copyright holder, by putting the model into the game assigns the use to the scope of the game which means that you could not successfully sue someone who used it within the game or in the format it was turned into when placed into the game and used within the game but only if they extracted the model from the game to use in another media or game. Meaning that if they obtained your “IP” from the game to use in another game then you have a case but if they obtained your IP from the game you put it into for use in the same game you have no case.


Yes I have never said otherwise.

This is a fine point I am not fully qualified to answer since it gets into the “grey” area of the law. As I understand it because you assign your copyright to the “collective work” - the game – it means that the copyright provisions of the collective work take precedence. It does not then necessarily follow that that a violation of the EULA can be enforced by you but would have to be enforced by the copyright holder of the collective work in this case Microsoft. As my lawyers have told me "don't give it away without a contract"

However 99% of the content made for the Halo game cannot be copyrighted in the first place which is why I state simple that: If it is made for or from the Halo game you cannot obtain a copyright to it.

In terms of licencing, all you need to do is include a statement that says you do not wish for your work to be modified, ripped or distributed in any other format than the original map file, and you will be covered. Edit: Protecting the map file with Steelix's application automatically shows intent that you wish the content to be secure and not ripped, so that will cover it too.

So yeah Higuy, when you said 'yeah read the EULA'...the EULA is in favour of anti-ripping without explicit permission from the content creator.
Edited by Limited on May 28, 2012 at 05:48 PM

Except that by willing putting the IP into the Halo Game you have already assigned copyright over to the copyright covering the collective work and can not add additional licensing above and beyond the collective work. Enforcement of the copyright for that collective work then falls to the owner, or in this case Microsoft, and you are bound by their usage rules and licensing. And for the record their usage rules state that assets can be re-used within the games and in any (reasonable) manner that is non-commercial.

This all assumes that you can obtain a copyright for the item in the first place because no matter what it is if you specifically designed it to be used for or in the game then you can't obtain a copyright for it in the first place.

I really do not see the point in these pointless arguments about the copyright, no one is going to even attempt to sue anyone anyway even if it was possible...

Everytime ripping is mentioned people jump into the law side of things, it's BS. This topic is more about morals ect, not law.
Edited by OHunterO on May 28, 2012 at 08:25 PM

I have no strict morals about ripping.Although I always give credit where it is due and I sometimes ask the author for permission.

Ripping is perfectly acceptable in most situations, unless the original author has expressly stated that the item should not be modified or extracted for alternate use.

As noted, the law side isn't really very relevant as nobody here could even afford to run a court case just to sue someone for a maximum of maybe... (£20?) anyway.

---

Edited by Jaz on May 29, 2012 at 01:40 PM

No...

I can claim independent right of ownership on my own respective work. I would enjoy separate, independent and unassailable rights. I'm assuming your lawyer told you the 3 rights of ownership, right to use, right to collect and own, and right of alienation (up to deletion).

I will still have rights in an exclusive manner even if my work is incorporated into a collective work.

I also would hold moral rights on my content.
Edited by Limited on May 29, 2012 at 01:40 PM
Edited by Limited on May 29, 2012 at 01:40 PM

Limited, awaiting Dennis's informative post supported and referenced by his private law firm... Just saying...

Hey guys.

I just took an introductory course in law. And I'm posting about grey areas on the internet.
Like a boss.

Kind regards,
Limited

Copyright is just too confusing, I just assume I don't own anything and hope for the best.

Typical responses from HaloMaps users.

Actually, I myself would gladly provide more intelligent responses and participate in the debate myself. However, Dennis is doing a pretty good job of informing you of the validity of your legal lingo anyway.

Typical responses from Modacity users.

You realise your post is dripping in irony?

I'd like to make it clear (as 00Hunter00) has poitned out, this is not about - "Oh I'm going to take you to court!" because as previously stated, it would be pointless.

This is to settle the common misconception that:
A. Microsoft takes all ownership and you have no rights to your work.
B. It says so in the EULA.

Both of those are completely untrue.
Edited by Limited on May 29, 2012 at 03:32 PM

I never realised that was a common misconception. The legal lingo is quite simple. Any work you submit to Microsoft's licensed software may be used, modified, or extracted for the sole purpose of use in Microsoft's games. I'm not entirely sure on whether or not Microsoft themselves then have the right to use your work, however, there is nothing in the licensing against ripping. Anything that you put into Halo may be used again by others in Halo.

Cough cough

• Limitations on Reverse Engineering, Decompilation, and Disassembly. You may not reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, except and only to the extent that such activity is expressly permitted by applicable law notwithstanding this limitation.
Edited by Limited on May 29, 2012 at 04:10 PM