As most of you know open sourcing is rare in the community because of what it causes.

On one side , you have the people that say it contributes to the community. And on the other you have the clear evidence that all we get is aload of "noob" made maps , basically boxes with good tags thrown in , and we all know that does not make a good map.

I brought this debate here (most likely back to life here) because at the moment , whilst i develope content for the Sonic Mod , i was concidering open sourcing old parts of the mod , for instance ...




These 2 characters , we wont be using in the final , and therefore we dont really need them , but we have them anyway , i was concidering open sourcing , but i am concerned about how its all going to go.

For instance , if everyone starts contributing more towards the main modding teams , then thats good , because it shows open sourcing works , and can bring a community together to work on various projects , for instance , CMT , Metroid Online , Sonic : GOTAW , H3MT.

As far as i can tell , those are the only remaining big mapping teams in CE exsistance that actually produce and release stuff , maybe not constantly , but i know all those mods are still active and have stuff ingame.

On the other hand , if everyone just breaks up to attempt similar things , but they do not understand the process`s fully , then you get alot of failed attempts at mapping teams , and i am sure you have seen your past share of those here at Halomaps.

Whats your thoughts on open sourcing and the larger mapping teams?

People will think I am playing semantics but it is very important that you understand exactly what Open sourcing means. And in particular in this context as it relates to the Halo CE game.

Open sourcing is a legal licensing term. Very, very simply “Open sourcing” means that you allow other people to use your Intellectual property without a fee regardless of whether they make money from it or not and they are free to use it in any manner they see fit. Open Source is actually a legal term as it pertains to the licensing of original works and intellectual property. At its core it assumes that you have full legal rights to the material you are sourcing. This is a key component of Open Source material. This is an important concept.

Anything made for or from the Halo CE game cannot, by legal definition, be considered as an open source product because the creator does not have full rights to the Intellectual Property and by putting it into the game or having a likeness to the game is contractually bound by the End User Licensing Agreement and copyright to relinquish any such rights to the material to Microsoft and Bungie as the sole licensee of the Halo franchise. In short you cannot legally own anything made for or from the Halo CE game. You have no rights to the material you make for or from the game. You cannot open source material for or from the game because you cannot own it.

This is the legal facts concerning user created content for most Games: You can’t legally own it. The game manufacturer retains the legal rights to anything made from or for the game. For a plain English language description of the legal rights you have with a Microsoft game you can check the Game Content Usage Rules here: http://www.xbox.com/en-US/community/developer/rules.htm. Essentially as the third bullet very succinctly states “You can’t sell or otherwise earn anything from your Items.”

This ownership concept is one that many have failed to understand. In essence since you can’t sell or otherwise earn anything from the stuff made for or from game then the only thing you can do is use it or share it. Your ownership is limited to the physical control you can exert by keeping it on your PC. Once it leaves your direct control or PC you no longer have any legal rights to the stuff.

So what does all this mean? It means that any user created content made for or from the game can be used in any manner as soon as it is made public and as long as Microsoft & Bungie have made no claims or demands on its use. It does not stop people from developing and using copy protection schemes but it also means that people are not prohibited from breaking those copy protection schemes and can do so without any recourse.

To sum it up, what it all means is that any user created content for the game that is placed into the public domain is already fair game for anyone to use. The only people who can prevent its use is Microsoft and Bungie. So therefore when you make user created content it is just a matter of how much you are willing to share it with others or more precisely how easy you wish to make it for others to use your stuff since you can’t legally stop people from using it to begin with.

I think map teams and indivuduals should do what they want, what they feel is best on the issue.

But there is one thing good that could come out of releasing those two bipeds. There are some who may want to make sonic levels, yet they just don't have a good biped. If you do release those tags i would include some notes for map makers who are wanting to build some sonic like levels.

I truly don't care what you all do with you tags. I always thought if you want something get it yourself so if you want a tag make it yourself.

Have the satisfaction that someone thought your tags were good enough to use in one of their maps, regardless of what type of map it is, be it a box, or the greatest thing since sliced bread.

One word: Sharing. Learn to do it or GTFO. As Dennis said, the company who legally owns the game can legally say who can't use it. Once content it made, anyone can use it, as long as it stays in the game. Learn to share, or get out. Simple as that.

I really think you guys are mis understanding me , i am all fine for open sourcing i am just saying is it really justified? , because we all go on about "oh it helps the community to learn" and such , and yet i have never really see anyone learn from it , so how is that justified?

"the main problem is that the people in this community need to grow some balls and stop stealing tags withought crediting to think that people on servers will think he made it all and his map will be downloaded as if it were coldsnap"

Thats exactly my point , i talked over this with my team , and they dont mind the idea of open sourcing , hell i recently uploaded Silver to Halomaps via HTTP so i could see what is done with him.

We recently have gotten into more talks about expanding the release of our content so that we can branch out more and expand the community , so i expect to release more.

well im going to sum up my opinion in a few sentences
if someone doesnt know how to do something for halo, i am more than willing to help them out with it, and even send them the tag for it. like the .weapon tag so they can see how everything works.
if someone doesnt know how to model or skin etc... i will help them out with that too if they ask me.
however, if someone complains because they dont kow how to model and they are not willing to learn (which sadly seems to be the case with almost everybody who makes these requests), i dont think i should just send a model to them and say "here i made it for you." if they wanted a model for reference, or for me to make something so they could see the steps i took, i would be happy to do that for whoever asked.
basically, i like people who want to learn, i dont like people who dont want to learn

H3MT and CMT feels that if we're not going to use it, might as well give it away. This doesn't go for Valhalla though, because our first build wasn't even good at all.

map protection is always going to happen. it doesnt matter what anyone says, its going to happen. and when map protetion is finally broken, im leaving halo ce becuase i cant play with a bunch of children who cant make their own stuff.

because we are greedy little pricks :D

look what i posted. those of us that make things had to learn. its kkind of lke the people who cheat the welfare system in the united states (dont start a flame war). they dont do work and people give them stuff. i said i would help anyone to learn, and i have. who is it that im helping with basic hud creation? am i a good help? i will not give people things if they are too lazy to make it themselves. i had to learn, and im really not intellegent at all. so if i can do it, you can do it

That was God's choice. Why are we even debating about this? If you want people to have it, give it to them. If you don't want people to have it, don't let them rip from it. Simple. You don't HAVE to protect your maps. It's your choice.

ok lets stop here for a minute. i care about people being lazy for personal reasons. its an opinion. thats all it will ever be. we all know the legal side of the issue. the flaw with your logic (athiests shut the hell up please) is that God is a divine being. by christian religion he can do everything including make the universe. we are human. we do not have divine power. however, we can all learn how to model. that is not a thing exclusive to God.
we can choose who uses the tags and who doesnt in that we can choose who we send the tags to. untill bungie or gearbox or any of those guys steps in, map protection will be used no matter what people say.

It is about choice. The perfect example of how people have learned from having access to others work is the release of the HEK+ and the single player tag set. More maps and more people have continuously been coming to Halo CE because of all the resources long past the normal lifespan of most games. Without those assets to draw people they wouldn’t be bothered. Sharing the map assets is what kept Halo CE alive so long and continues to get new people all the time.

If you are saying that people are not learning from the tags then you are taking a narrow view of how the game is used. The common argument is basically “that person didn’t have to do what I did to make this stuff so I don’t want him to have it” or “he’s not going to use it the way I want him to” ie: make “crappy” maps. (of course the definition of a “crappy map” cannot be quantified because everyone has different likes and dislikes) They are both selfish concepts and imply that the other person MUST like and do what you do.

Now you’re free to think like that, I am not going to tell you differently, however in my opinion the better person is the one who offers his “stuff” without restrictions, without a selfish motive other than to help the community. And having more choices more assets is better for the community and I have the stats to prove it. Look at the home page: Total Downloads:(since Jan,1 2005) 7,845,966, Total Bytes Served: 227.76 Terabytes

I don't make maps so I share my bandwidth with everyone.

2005? i thought the dates go as far back as 2004?

The download data was only kept starting Jan 2, 2005 when I re-designed the website. The website opened June 10th 2004.

you have a good point. if you learn to do something yourself and out do those who dont give you stuff, do you now feel even better? im an independant person. i like to do stuff myself. thats why i have this opinion. im willing to teach, but not to give. yes i am selfish. throwing that out there. when i first saw cmt's hud i wanted it. so i tried to make one similar to it. i learned alot from just messing around. i got bored eventually, but i made my halo 3 hud, and i think its either best or 2nd to best out there. and my model stuff. im not even sure how i did that... basically, to me it feels better to learn how to make something myself than it is to be given something. its a real sense of acomplishment.

keep on practiceing. my first model was litterally a box. then i made a 7000 triangle thompson POS in gmax, then i made crappy looking 400 tri guns and whored meshsmooth untill they were in the 4000 triangle area, then i started looking at ways to conserve triangles and learned some new tools. unless someone has a specific learning disablility, then i think they are capable of learning if they are really into it. as i said, i will send any non-model or skin tag to anyone. so they can examine the .weapon tag. honestly, making a crappy version of something and giving it away is mean if you ask me. thats more of a slap in the face than not getting anything at all. to me its kinda like saying "here i decided i was bored and made this for you in about 5 minutes. it sucks, get over it"

Everyone knows how to do it, and they do acualy do it in a maner; with their selected group.


Acualy, as long as bungie doesnt say anything for or against protection, its still the creators choice, because they can choose how they make it, and they choose to create it with a lock on it.


Na, ill just release the tut on better protection then.


Knowing the morons wont be bugging you trying to figure out how they f**ed it up, and not seeing it in the future as a rapid fire nuke gun.


Exactly. I have a billion people who ask me for help, and I wont ever do it for them, I make them do it themselves. They never learn if you do anything for them, because they belive they can get more out of you. If you guide them threw it, then they see and learn.



Now.. we really dont need any more topics on publicly releasing things.. Neither side will sway; its everyones choices, and you wont stop them. These topics are always pointless bickering.

You started by wanting my sun, and I told you it would be done when I got around to it, then when you suposidly wanted to make your own, I posted in your topic that it would be easier for you to wait, and then you spazed without even saying you no longer wanted mine in any form as if I could read your mind, and then every time you bring up the incident in this discreet manner, I responce with htis and you spaz at me for bringing up the past. I can probly still dig up all the topics if you want to continue this.

http://forum.halomaps.org/index.cfm%3Fpage=topic&topicID=16735
Back then, you started "OUR SUN!!!" blah blah and acting like a complete jackass, and when rambo admited about how much he begged, you still kept insalting me without any apology for your wrongfull acusation. You didnt ask much, but did ask me like twice though; rambo asked quite a bit.

http://forum.halomaps.org/index.cfm%3Fpage=topic&topicID=17149
Then you guys make a new topic, and you directly ask how to make yours teh same as mine. I blab on a bit about how you "didnt want mine" and spazed about it, and then gave you a link to a topic that if you looked threw, would help, adn then you started saying I hated you, and yet I had just given you guys help.. you really need to take care of those anger isues.




To prevent spam in this thread, any future messages from me on this subject will only be in PM (you should abide by this aswell)

and this is why we shouldnt make these threads anymore. it seems like grunts7 wants stuff to be open sourced for his own personal reasons, just like me teaching but not giving for my own reasons.

Sonic has made threads like this before, i think he is a little obsessed with the "open source" debate.

But i think topics like this should be brought up from time to time as if gives people something to talk about.

i guess ill have to release my Dennis biped tags. (lies)

I hope they are better looking than the original and thinner too.

im taking my ball and im going home.
ill say again, Christmas must be a verry depressing time for most of ur friends and families with that kind of attitude.

Due to your position on the temporal scale many of you forget that it is a game, nothing more nothing less. It can’t be due to the licensing agreement. They taught you in Kindergarten to share your toys. Some will and some won’t, it all depends on the lessons you learned at that early age. I don’t expect you to listen because you already know everything and these concepts are hard to unlearn. The fact is that you don’t “own” anything you make for the game regardless of how you feel or think about it. How you react to that fact is nothing more than a display of character. You decide who you want to be.

That made me lol.

How you react to that fact is nothing more than a display of character. You decide who you want to be.

ftw.

NOTE: if HEK+ never existed, you couldnt rip and/or protect a map.....so you (general you) couldnt be whining about protection, but more of "can u send me ur tags?"


so... if a community like this (the forum as well) wouldnt exist...and the site were just a big map archive thing only..... u couldnt even contact the author and you would have to learn by your self :)

HEK+ was made to rip AND protect maps. If the map is protected you can't rip it, therefore it is somewhat private and shouldn't be tampered with. If it is unprotected, you have the full right to rip from the map and use the items. However, if you don't give credit where credit is due, you have a hugeass problem on your hands.

Sorry Rooster, but that will never happen. Unless Microsoft or Bungie decide to open source the engine like Marathon 2's, we will never see what makes that engine tick.lol.

HEK+ was made so you could rip from the SP maps, CE intergration was initialy added to help people recover their own tags.

Regardless........Dennis answered the deal with unprotected maps and ripping them. However, you have to give people credit for doing their own work,that is a must.