To everyone whp supports protection, look at it this way: They're just blurrs of pixels that look like guns. Someone steals your tags and claims it as their own, so what? There's no real reputation on the internt. Go make some friends in the real world and show them your real work. I also think it's more gameplay that matteres instead of who makes them. There are a lot of maps with really good gameplay but suck because the tags are horrible. If good tags get overused in bloodgulch, who cares? Nobody is going to play it, nobody is going to download it.

Another person who didn't read the thread.....

This topic comes up way too much here if you ask me.

Anyhow i understand the point of open source but to me that isn't always a good thing. Open source sometimes will really turn out stupid stuff.



You don't have to point that out all the time, it really does not matter. People can easily enough get the idea of this thread without reading that link.
Edited by Rm860 on Mar 4, 2008 at 12:51 AM

I disagree. I'm pretty sure cheatsman would say so too.

llamamaster's tut which was posted by kirby was the last good tut for modeling posted. How many are waiting for Mass or Selentic or some1 who can model good forerunner to actually make and post or upload a tut?
its not an excuse because i know u can search and find kirks or firedragons tuts. but there are not enough pple here going out of their way to help others learn!

Actually you were not wrong "back then".
And this is bad because?? Oh yea: You don't want people playing with your toys.

I've made my views on the protection issue for the Halo map making community well known and backed up my arguments by showing how the release of the full SP/MP tag set spurred a renewal in what was a faltering map making community and pointed out that there is more innovation in the other user communities like Valve/Source and the UT engines where “protection” is non-existent, but I also know that no amount of fact will overcome the emotional response of selfishness. I know that most of the members of this community have not reached a level a maturity yet to see that this is not a black or white issue, that it does not contribute to their self worth and what they make for the Halo game has little to do with who they are and that need to be somebody is what drives this desire for “protection”.

The logic is simple: You cannot own, control (once placed in the public), sell or profit from anything you make for, from or in the likeness of the Halo game: This is fact backed up by law. If you can’t profit from it then it is by definition a hobby; a shared hobby. Hobbies are meant to be fun and open and openness means inclusive. To be inclusive you share with others – on your own terms – but ultimately you share.

Argue amongst yourselves and explain again why sharing is so evil and bad. Why no one should mess with your tags and every map should be locked up tight. While you are doing that keep in mind that if it wasn’t for a very few people who were willing to sharing what they did, discovered or had then this community would already be dead. Please convince me how sharing is so, so bad, because then I can start protecting all the expensive bandwidth I’ve shared.

takes 1 simple click before u begin and a click after. u dont even have to make it a shareable format because thats the time consumer ( i or some1 else will convert the camtasia project to wmv or w/e then share it)

(hai guys imma back =p)
Here we go again, I presume everyone here knows bungie and microsoft own halo, right?
Well it's been stated a bizillion times before aswell but if annything that goes trough tool is property of bungie then why do "creators" of tags continuesly claim it's there's (yes I know the idea most of the time is yours but point remains here)

The way I see it is yes the rise of BG mods will consistantly increase once/if open source comes (mostly cause people like differant things will go further on this below) but that might note might draw more people here, cause during the time I've known selentic I shared his oppinion on protection = needed (altough I cant model for **** I try but meh I fail at this point)
but lets shove that of the table a moment now.

K now I want to whoever is reading this to imagine yourself to be a 12 ~ 17 year old who is not interested in the moddeling or makeing of maps and just wants to play a good game.
You start of with bloodgulch then play coldsnap then snow grove then hypothermia and soem runway.
K now you go back to Bloodgulch and your of oppinion that a BR here or a H3ish AR would work or that you'd like the coldsnap rifle or whatever fancys your taste.
Now if you would walk up to those for open sourceing they might or may not agree with you while those who are against it might attempt to flame you back and forth to hell for thinking of (another) Blood Gulch mod.
This is most likely what imo happens each time a new BG mod is born (with the exception of actualy getting protected tags in most cases)

presumeing you realise what I just tried to explain above would you help him or would you tell him to sod off and become a "1337 model makeing machine" I think we all know what most would say.
that is what I seem to understand from the BG mod comunity (cause altough I think BG mods are usualy fail most of my friends think they own for said above reason)
Fact remains people are pikcy they don't like weapon A at location 5 or think 60 ammo is to little or way to much or something along that line.

Alrighty back to the main subject,
People who make maps/tags/stuff like this want to protect them (cause no one would like to see there stuff ripped then raped then called new) altough the community would frown upon this and say wouldn't this be *insert originol items creator*'s item just rehased? (for better or worse)
Most likely 1 out of 10 (new/ignorant people) wouldn't realize and go COOOOOL or soemthign along that trend while the more "mature" and "older" people here could explain it PROPERLY not "thats *authors name* GT*O you NOOB!!!!11111" wich happens alot now (don't say you don't cause you people whom I'm talking to know they do it)

However if putten into perspective what would be more important an army of Sweet maps and modelers all working as one or a closed comunity where little is shared and only few know how and even fewer willing to share (I'm not pointing fingers on this btw)

in short if you weigh pro's and cons wich would come ontop?
but if and when you do keep in mind the following
- you do not physicly own a tag it's bungies once you put it in halo
- BG mods will come with or without open sourceing
- People will try create box stuff and sweet stuff it has to do with time and effort
- People will always whine and complain it's human nature with or without open source
- if Bungie/Microsoft didnt want us to rip tags and use H2/H3/SP/MP stuff then why didnt they tell dennis to take down halomaps or just close the servers for halo or something?

P.S if you cannot even atempt to read this you are both lazy and just a "bernie burger"

damn dennis, youve yet again proved to us the wisdom of age :P
Edited by Dhark on Mar 4, 2008 at 01:18 PM

I think a lot of times new people don't even realize they could make new geometry for stuff. They rip a something or other, and tweak some tags, and say "hey! look what I made!", not realizing what they're getting themselves into. Then the obsessive compulsive flamers come along and completely mis-understand the situation, or choose to overlook it, and accuse the new guy of lying. Complete comunication breakdown, or simply bullying in disguise, resulting in the new guy saying screw this, it aint worth the b.s., and so there's one less person in the servers
Destructive to the CE community, maybe? I think so

And bobby just grasped one of my points in what 4 lines .___. I feel obeslete now lol.

your not obsolete, you just said it with more... beauty and flow

~KZ

Thanks for this Divine Intervention Dennis.... this post Much needed it with the bunch of ''Protection Lobbyist'' Trying to force their opinion in our heads. Pointing out how useful the SP/MP Tags extraction was to this community. Considering all we learned from them...


Just look at H2V. Why did CMT come back to CE From it Already? I won't point anything but I'm taking a brief look at the Map's page and most of the stuff there is no match for Halo CE Maps. Why? They have no acces to SP/MP Tags and use a Locked down HEK. Were they to recieve the Tags, everything could change and make CE Look pathetic but they'Re not there yet.

Now of course, as people have stated before, Open Sourcing stuff WILL see an increase of bloodgulch mods and such, but it will also lead to a series of improvements. People building from other people's with improvement. Improving and building over the older generation. What happens with ''Protected'' stuff is that people will have to work, individually, as hard as the original maker to understand how it works. Once that'S achieve, it's pretty safe to assume that the person won't feel like ''Improving'' the discovery too much or simply work on another ''New thing'' to put in his map. Making a full set of weapons, vehicles, BSP and all in all, tagset for a map when working individually is just out of question if you wish to have reasonable release date. If he ends up doing this, then in the end the community hasn't improved. He's probably justyt managed to ''Look like'' what was already out there without figuring anything or atleast, very few new things.

Open Source For the Win.

*edited by admin to fix quote tag completion
Edited by Dennis on Mar 4, 2008 at 04:42 PM

oh i thought u didnt belive it in masterz? why are you making topics about it.

...thats not the point he was trying to make...
n00b :D

Kiwi has no problem if someone decides to share their stuff with the community. What Kiwi doesn't like is the fact that some people want to force people to open source what they made. If they don't want to open source it that is their decision, don't force it upon others. Same goes for protecting a map.

Kiwi, this statement is an example of how most of you are missing the actual point or the subject. Let me repeat something to maybe make it more clear and address everyone in the process:
The argument for "map protection" is as meaningless now as it was before the HEK+ program was developed. Everyone is arguing based on the assumption that what they make for the Halo game is theirs to control. Not so much.

Once it is placed in the public you have lost all control over how or what is done with it. You have no legal rights to it to control its use any more than the people who made maps before HEK+ was released have any say.

If you create something for Halo and keep it on your PC you have full control over it. it is yours to have and to hold. Once you release it to the public you don’t. It is that simple. If someone makes a map un-protector there is nothing you can do about it. So why worry? And what does it matter anyway? It’s a hobby.

As an example: No one is, should or can force Hdoan to release his rigged bipeds anymore than they can force you to release or share anything you make. However once placed into the public all bets are off and you no longer have control.

The other argument is that it may/will create more BG mods and maps you think are crappy… so what? Who made you (in the general sense) lord and master of what everyone should like? Those who make the effort to create quality work will be noticed and respected those who don’t will not what else is there? Remember its all Bungie’s toys you are playing with not yours.

Didn't you post an article or something like that where it restated something about the fair use of these types of things? As long as we didn't attempt to screw Microsoft over they didn't care what we did? You also say we can't control what we release. Map protection is a form of control that is avalible to those who wish to use it. It prevents those they do not wish to use it from messing with it (at least most). Also, neither Bungie or Microsoft has come up and said "No more protecting maps."

I think it's sad the M6 isn't in the downloads section. You can only use it in Snow Grove (mb others). It's a unique weapon, and it'd be nice to be able to see how it works.

But I understand, Snow Grove wouldn't be that popular if people didn't have to play it to use the M6 :/
Edited by bobbysoon on Mar 4, 2008 at 06:23 PM

by M6 u mean the 'assault carbine' that fires as a single bullet or a full automatic gun right?

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Spartan_Laser

aahhh; ok. I wouldn't know that because I'm a 'lawful' player (no heavies, no snipers, rarely shotties) xP

when uve played halo for almost 5 years...you come to a point where u seek a larger challenge. and that one can do very well with almost every single gun. But also I have a sense of playing fair and giving people a chance *cough* xD; not requiring the need to get down and dirty lol. Interestingly enough I also dont use vehicles; even if i use it just to get across the map xP. I also dont throw grenades; unless someone has thrown more than 1 at me.... and flamethrower i dont use either. xD The only exception to this rule of mine is zombies and that im the 2nd / last person alive. Then i just grab anything near me and go run like the pansy i am!

Also; people say very; very nasty things to me when i start using the 'rigged' weapons xD I just got tired of it.

people can complain all the want about protecting maps or open sourcing them, but only a quick scan of this website's map database is needed to see how many just downright crap maps are uploaded carelessly. look at some of the first maps we had, they had, for the most part, pretty good modeling, and things that were put together with effort. nowadays you have maps that are boxes.... like homobox.map or lameassbox.map..... why would anyone release that kind of garbage? now look at how many maps there are that are just heightmaps with every custom tag jammed into them... now can anyone honestly say that people will not just take the open sourced GOOD tags and put them in there? look at how many people go after cmt's stuff then jam them in a box. clamdanarena.map anybody? by open sourcing tags, you DO help the community by showing the members who CARE how to do things. but there are undoubtedly many members who just dont want to take the time to learn. nobody can disagree with that. so, open sourcing things that were created in gurilla is just fine IMO, but releasing the models, skins, animations, and sounds just allows people to be lazy. what could they learn with those models? possibly import them and see how they were modeled (thats how i figured out that .gbxmodels didnt have to be sealed)... but the model is all triangulated by then so theres not much in the way of seeing how it was when it came out of max. and before you argue about that, there are already quite a few tags on this site and many other sites where you can download models and tutorials

a quick summary for those of you who dont like to read:
relesing tags that were created in gurilla is fine imo.
releasing things like .gbxmodels and model animations allow people to be lazy and not make their own things.

umm, how about noone take sides and just forget this??

Seriously: If this keeps going, Dennis might just wake up 1 day and just say 'screw this'. I doubt this is what he had in mind when he made these forums and site.

Yes i'm new here and that I probably dont have the big picture regarding all this drama and map protection junk. But what i really fail to see is why everyone is trying to change everyone else's opinion? cant u just live with someone else's opinion? if u cant live with someone else's opinion here, how are you going to deal with the people in real life? Also im pretty sure that in real life, people arent just going to listen to all the nasty things u say to one another. Unfortunately people would probably resort to violence. So all your doing here is learning new ways to probably get yourself into lots of fist fights for the rest of your life. Do you really want that for your future? I can assure you that it would be a painful future and nothing good will come out of it.

Back more onto the point though. I'm new here and i genuinely like these forums; sure not everyone gets along as well as they could. But really thats just life. But this is uncalled for and has been blown out of propotions that really, are unacceptable. I also dont want to see these forums shutdown. Or at least not for a while longer.
Remember; if people got along and started helping each other; life would be nicer and the 'dream' can go on longer. If these forums shut down; where would YOU go? Halomods??

I don't care if this is on topic or off topic; this is something people should read and always keep in the back of their head; whether they like it or not.

(this reply will basically be copied to the unprotecting thread.)
(Refer back to musicman's post and you will gain a greater understanding)
Edited by Dhark on Mar 4, 2008 at 07:53 PM

Haha. I despise your point of view but that's a nice law exploit. Sadly you'd never win it in court...

It would in Canada.

Anyway, if this place closed we'd all have to go too.... *shudders* H2vista.net!

kiwi thats a horrifying thought! speak not of it! :O

Dennis has said that everyone is entitled to their opinion. This is ideal for debates on topics, but unfortunately, about half of the others here would readily do every kind of ban to anyone who simply opposed some opinion of theirs if they were moderator.

Sigh. I did not want to see another one of these topics created.

Here is my opinion. This will be without considering the legal issues Dennis stated. Sorry Dennis, but I have doubt in Bungie or Microsoft's interest in whether or not we use protection... if they do and start yelling at us, then I guess we just go open source then :).

What I like about tag protection is that one can ensure that tags do not suddenly spread like a cornfield wildfire in the late 1800s early 1900s (back when some fields and plantations would spontaneously combust because of temperature, much worse than our "Global Warming") if they simply want to ask one or two people to see if they like the map. On the other hand, once I were to release a map public, it would seem rather selfish for me to keep a bunch of tags, especially if those tags include some elements made by others. In this case, not only would I rather release a map unprotected (MAYBE unless someone whines to me because I asked for their tags -.-) whilst giving credit where credit is due. Then I do not really care if the tags spread like wildfire...

well... actually I would, but there would be nothing in my interest that I could do. The sad part about having the Halo Custom Edition community being fully open sourced is that it is so full of children between the ages of 5 and 11. What is so bad about this is that MANY of them love using plagarism (and sometimes this is not taught in school that it is bad... until college... then they gt kicked out. Serves them right.) and will simply take a tag that took a bunch of work that they somehow received... and then claim it as 100% their work and attempt to take all credit... then there are also people stupid enough to believe them D:.
They then find that it worked and decide to do all of their work through ripping and putting no effort into new stuff...

Sometimes, protection can still be "bad" by "not allowing one to look at those tags"... but almost all of those protected tags could be recreated though looking at the tags of those who were generous enough to create and release their tags unprotected.

But then again, it also provides some inspiration to make a good tag if it is protected rather than just taking it and attempting to get it ingame. :-/

Because having both protected and unprotected tags is what is happening now and the ONLY harm this issue is causing is the fact that some people's opposing opinions tend to get personal at times AND all arguments other than those legal issues Dennis stated can be satisfied...
My conclusion is that everyone (except Dennis, I guess because no one has made a good argument against his) needs to shut up.

edit: oh yeah, and if you SERIOUSLY want everyone in the world to agree with your opinions in full, try and kill us all so that you ARE everyone. Impossible? Yup. Because other than that it is impossible to force someone to have a different opinion other than their own, no matter how much you abuse, insult, threaten, or violate them.
Edited by Enzo03 on Mar 4, 2008 at 08:18 PM

oh i might have not made it clear: yea sure everyone should express their opinion; but on that note, people should live with that person's opinion too (that better now?)

u wouldnt find me there.

I'm curious to hear a person's opinion (preferably one who is for map protection) on people who DO NOT protect their maps that they have made, with their own custom content, like myself.

The one map I released was not protected.

i am not one of those pple Nugga, but i admire u for it.

and I would've released my custom weapons and maps had my old laptop not burned out.