i also see it as a way to judge the charactor of some1.But like i said before its very hard for both sides to see the validity in the other sides opinion.

As I stated somewhere else, if someone uses my tags in one of their maps, REGARDLESS if it is a box map or the map of the century, they apparently liked what they saw, and it made them happy. Which in turn makes me happy that someone appreciated my work. Everyone wins.
Edited by Nugga117 on Mar 4, 2008 at 08:43 PM

Agreed.

Kiwi thinks he answered Dennis's arguement reasonably well.

H2V.net hates Kiwi.

Kiwi has absolutely no problem with you protecting your map. What Kiwi has a paroblem with is other people trying to make those who worked hard on something, give up their work.

agrees with Kiwi but still cant understand WHY some1 would not want to share. Ever given a gift to a stranger? try it its a real feel good thing.

lol. Women are that bad?

oh u will learn :)

Lol! Ok, they're both pre-suppositions, in my opinion
pre-supposition: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/presupposition

XD close, but it's --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine
Edited by bobbysoon on Mar 4, 2008 at 09:22 PM

Weird. It didn't post my post. Let's try again, shall we?

I agree with Kiwi. If you worked hard on something, you should have the final say. Regardless if there are laws in place that it is no longer your property, it is YOUR work, and YOU spent the time on it. If someone else wants it, they can learn to do themselves, and someone who otherwise would have been a noob ripper becomes someone great.
Unless it strikes directly against Microsoft, they won't enforce that law. Not to mention the download page on Halomaps says who made it, if Dennis wasn't bringing up that point just for the sake of bringing up that point, it wouldn't say who made the map, because it IS Bungie's property.
If you spend enough time on something, it is your baby, and you don't want to see it ruined.
Everyone does things when they are noobs. They screw up.
Hell, I made 2 BG mods, tried and failed epicly to make a better Coldsnap (As in making my own map in Gmax, steal some textures, and add in plenty of ripped vehicles and scenery) popped a VMT and stole some Star Wars models from a site in a pathetic attempt to get them ingame, became good buddies with Hogdriver, and I helped him learn the secrets of getting the models from protected maps over the course of about 2 months.
I regret doing every one of those actions.
The BG mods didn't do much but get me flamed when I bragged about them, the "New Coldsnap" (It was called Domination) kept exceptioning because of a flaw in the mapping tutorial I was using telling me to put some grenades in the starting equipment, I was (And still am, by some people) seen as a noob by most of H2V, and the models fiasco turned into ALL YOUR TAGS ARE BELONGING TO US.

Also, I think the HEK should have remained unreleased. Sure, it helped me out when I was a noob, but it spawned most of the noobs who hang around here most of the time.
The main difference between the open-source of games like Half-Life and here is that this place is filled with 13 year old noobs. And younger.
If you are under the age of 13, GTFO of Halo. You are ruining its reputation. I do believe that the rating says "M" for Mature, which means wait until your balls drop before coming back. Thank you.
But anyway, 13 year olds tend to think they can get away with taking credit for things they didn't do. I remember I tried to when I was 13, on a different community. When you open-source a game full of 12 and 13 year olds, you get chaos.
If you have enough tutorials, well-made and informative, you don't need open-sourcing. The Halo community is the most immature by far of ANY online gaming community, or even FORUM, I've ever seen. Why? The age group is a major reason. I don't know WHAT 12 year old started it, but Halo has been flooded with them. I think I agree with Bungie in the Legendary Edition of H3's cutscene commentary that Cortana was a major reason 12 and 13-year-olds are attracted to the community like a Moth to light. ;P

That being said, the SWMT maps will be protected (In case anyone cares), but, because I am SICK and TIRED of seeing crappy Star Wars vehicles and weapons everywhere, I will release the tags eventually. This is my consent to be releasing them, I don't want to be forced to have them open-sourced. If I made something like a Spartan Laser, I would protect it, but I'm just sick and tired of crappy Star Wars maps.

You know, I should make a news topic every week or so, saying what's going on in the community in general, giving links to any maps of note that came out that week, and having a rant on some random issue of the week.

I'm getting off on a tangent here, so I'll just close down this rant, but, to summarize, games full of immature kids shouldn't be open-sourced, HEK+ was a mistake, and every new person is a noob. In fact, noob is a corruption of the term "Newb", which is short for "Newbie", or someone who's new to the community.

Arrggghhh.. You still don't get it. It is not a matter of forcing anyone. It is just the way it works.

Let me try again:

Once you place your Halo map into the public it is no longer yours to control. If you create a way to protect your map from extraction and someone creates a program that gets by that there is nothing you can do. This was the situation with the HEK+ program and everyone knows (and this is sarcasm) how the HEK+ program hurt the community: NOT!

In this case possession is 100%. You control it as long as you don’t place it in the public. Once in public you can’t control it. The rest is just hyperbole and childish selfishness.

We have the right to utilize all technology and therefore we can protect maps but we can also use the same technology to unprotect maps. All's fair in love and war.
but would peace and friendship not be a better thing?

Ooh, ooh, let me be the one person who gets it!

People, the key word here is "foresight." By giving your map to someone, your map is at the other person's mercy. Never forget that. The only way to make sure 100% that things you don't want to be released stay unreleased is to let the files rot on your hard drive, and not tell a soul about what you're working on. Everything else is simply preventive measures, which can be overstepped.

The case is this: if you make something and release it, be it a private beta or a final release, don't cry about it if someone "takes" "your" content and reuses it in a way you don't want it to be used.

Also, fun fact: any and all tags created ever in the history of Custom Edition belong to Bungie. That's right; by putting your content into their engine, you are essentially forfeiting your content and/or IPs to Bungie.

The fact of the matter is whether or not ripping tags, unprotecting maps or whatever is morally wrong, I believe the biggest problem would be claiming things that aren't yours. Now I know that if some of us got our hands on some CMT tags for example, we would learn a helluva lot more then just jacking around with shader settings, or the like. The thing people fail to realize is that once you get it in game, and its in the public its not yours to say who can and cant have the source, its the community's.

People say that if CMT (I'm using them as an example, not picking on them or anything, but they're just the best example) were to release their tags, that halomaps would be flooded with BS. I don't know about you guys, but I most definitely see a lot of BS flooding this place without CMT's, ZTeam's or anyone else's help. Now I'm not saying map protection is bad, in fact I think its a great thing. Anything that lets me add some security to my beta maps, or final releases is great, but theres one thing that sets me apart i guess you could say. I happily give the source away to people who I think are gonna do good with it, and learn a thing or two.

*BEWARE: this is a little... idealistic i guess..*

I don't see this sudden influx of crap maps as a bad thing, quite the contrary. I see it as a chance to show all these new people how to make maps with the best of them, and to enjoy doing it. I think the best way to learn in this line of work is by example, but people who expect others people to do everything for them need to be given a reality check if anything.

If you learn anything hopefully it's the fact that protecting maps is like holding back knowledge. If you know anything, hopefully it's that knowledge is power. Then again there are those *******s who are in this for fame, and not for fun or making a better game experience.

Thats true pope, but everyone sees unprotecting as wrong, even though its not. Its not against the law, or against the bible, or anything for that matter. It's against the unspoken code of the community i guess you could say.

"It is just the way it works"? You said yourself, if Kiwi recalls, that this was "the most immature bunch" you have seen. Your examples of what open sourcing can do is not quite as applicable as many are not as mature here as in other communities. Kiwi rarely saw anything resembling a BG mod (in terms of the idea) yet here, it seems to be the norm. Given such a community, would you really want to give them more things to throw into a map?

Brain too tired to type up more of a response, do it later.

It wouldn't really matter anyway, there would still be the same amount of BS uploaded here as there always has. Who cares if there are BG mods being uploaded, you guys don't seem to get the point that you don't have to download them. As far as i see it, BG maps, box maps, pyramid maps, W/E.. there is one solution. Don't download it. That's why Dennis put a search function, rating system, and popular map box thing on the homepage people. Besides a lot of communities have their crappy mods that are common place.

Yes.

One thing has been puzzeling me tough if people know how to get past it why don't they just post so in the forum I mean the second they claim they know it they get shot annyways wheter that be a lie or not and dennis doesn't seem to mind at all so seriously whats keeping all of this stuff or is everyone just blowing hot air over a currently non existing thing (I know it can be done but People keep calling names and progs that were supposedly shared but that makes me wonder why it was never uploaded :\)

its because, like i said earlier, ripping tags from maps of people who don't want their tags released is looked down upon, even though they have no say over what I can or cant do with them because they're not under their control anymore.

give a man a fish and he will have food for a week learn the man how to make a fishing rod and fish and he'll never know hunger again.

Give the man a fish, and he will have food for a week. Teach the man how to make a fishing rod and he'll never know hunger again.
UET strikes again!

Seriously, Jay, you are ignorant. AGE DOES NOT EQUAL MATURITY! Anyone who says people younger than him/her is stupid and immature is ignorant. You are almost as bad as a rascist in terms of ignorance.

Give a man a fishing pole and wish him luck, and me may starve anyway.
Age can and usually does effect reading level.
Many of these tutorials are sloppy, incomplete, and/or erronious. So, for the young ones, it's even harder to figure out how to make stuff, and their frustration is perfectly understandable, when they see it can be done, but not for them

this is one of the complications to tag work right here. dennis is right in that there is no reason to hold back tags, its all well and good to give your stuff out, but the problem is that people are inevitably lazy. i want an honest answer: if i released my spartan laser tags (i uploaded a vid a while ago to youtube under Donut117), with a skinned model and such, how many of you can honestly say you would go and try to learn how to make your own? my assumption is not many. if i release a map thats protected with the aforementioned tags, how many people would be inspired to try and make their own? ok.... lol actually probably not many, but thats how i got my initiative. the problem with the latter is that we ARE hurting the community by not telling them how things function, aka giving out tags. this is a halo ce website, and tags are distinctly halo ce, thus by releasing, we teach people. HOWEVER, models and skins and animations and such are not just halo ce. there are many places you can learn those skills.

what im basically saying is that if i give my SL tags to someone (lets use hog as an example, because he seems to find these metaphors in good humor), they have the tags for an SL. if i teach hog how to tag an SL, he can not only use those tags, BUT apply the knowledge to other projects. the main problem is laziness though. giving everything out would stop people from trying to learn thus resulting in an ignorant community.... even though it seems like not many are putting forth an effort as it is.
and yes, my opinion tends to sway as i reconsider the different sides to the matter

thats my point. somebody had to figure it out... its kinda like the math you learn in school. somebody already figured it out, we have calculators, but we still need to learn it..... except in this case we dont NEED to learn it, but rather should so we can apply it instead of having these ridiculous request threads.

There will always be the very few who take the initiative and make something new or spend the time to create something inspiring. It will always be just a few and those people will be and are noticed and respected. For the most part they create not to gain respect they are respected because they create.

Most of the readme's I see in the maps submitted that have bold proclamations that they don’t want anyone “stealing” or using their tags have very little to worry about because the quality of work does not merit anyone else using them.

This is not school, this is not business, this is a hobby – playtime – and a large number of people want to mash stuff into a map and play with it. You may not like what they make, I usually don’t but you and I, or anyone else for that matter cannot be the judge of what they should like to play with.

One of the arguments I hear is “no one will make good stuff if they can download it” and that is bull. The people who want to make good stuff still will because they want to. The people who want to re-use old stuff will continue to re-use stuff and not make new stuff anyway. But you forget the law of unintended consequences. If you make the price of entry into map making hard only a few will make maps and most will not try. If the price of entry is low (a lot of open tags, info and assets) then you get more people making more stuff, most of the stuff they make will not be to your liking, but there will be more people and a few will make the leap and make better stuff.

There are more people making maps and playing with Halo CE now than there was before the HEK Plus program and the SP/MP tag set was released. By comparison the next generation H2V game map community is moving at a snail’s pace because of the lack of tools and assets. The Source and Unreal comminutes have full SDKs (software development kits) where everything is open to everyone and they are creating so much stuff that it can’t be kept up with.

The bottom line is: If you are making maps/tags to look cool and garner respect then for the most part you won’t get it because your work will reflect it. If you are making maps/tags because you like making quality stuff then you will earn the respect because of it. Sharing it willingly just makes you that much better of a person. Besides it’s just a hobby: a game so treat it like one. I have used this analogy before but most still don’t get it. We are all just playing with Bungie’s toys so everyone play nice like in kindergarten where you were taught to share.

I see both sides of the argument and i sort of agree with them both at times.

But i am just soo fricken sick of people talking about this. I mean come on there are plently of other things to talk about besides map protection. I see a topic on this exact thing on this forum so often it just makes me sick. I understand how people like to argue about it and talk about it but it really should not come up as often as it does.

People have reason why they believe what they believe but i am totally serious when i say that this topic should not come up nearly as often as it does here.

Yeah it's a dumb subject to fight over anyway, simply because the answer is cut and dry. It's like fighting over whether snow is hot or cold, map protection is fine, and getting around protection is fine, NOT GIVING CREDIT is wrong. TAKING PEOPLE'S WORK and passing it off as YOURS is wrong. Using it to learn, or to accent your map, is great. Plus, I don't see what the big deal is when people put your tags in crappy modifications of bloodgulch, who cares man?

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im one of them. I came into this game dreaming up a storm... it obviously didnt happen..
and dennis i bet you that bungie has no idea this site even exists.

I am not a betting man but that is bet I would be willing to take. Bungie and Microsoft are well aware of the HaloMaps.org website. You forget that Halo Maps was selected by Bungie and Gearbox to distribute the 1.07 patch update. It wasn't untill after my tele-conference with them (bungie/gearbox) that the patch was made mandatory.

Wait, so you have a connection to Microsoft and Bungie? Awesome!

So you made the 1.07 patch? Or just told Bungie / Gearbox if it wasn't mandatory all sorts of things would be going on?

People play BG mods because they like BG mods. They play Snow Grove because the like Snow Grove. The tags have little to do with it.
You are mistaken that the tags belong to the creators. They don't. Coptright law and the contract (EULA) back that up.
Technology can. In fan creations the creator’s only choice is not releasing his work.

Whoa, whoa where did you get all that??!!?? I am not on first name basis with Bungie personel nor do I have any influence or sway with them. It has been 3 years since I had two phone conversations. As for Gearbox my company bid on a project they wanted quoted so I know/knew a few people there. Most are no longer with Gearbox. I have no influence whatsoever with either company.

Don't take things out of context and then blow them up. All I said was Halo Maps is known by Bungie and Gearbox and the fact that they asked us to distribute the patch before it was made mandatory is proof.