If this was the case the shotgun would have zero appeal, when in reality it's probably one of the most sought-after weapons. If you mean in terms of the sword, personally, it's because it doesn't have enough of a draw-back that it appears to 'ruin gameplay'. But, you could argue, it's creating it's own gameplay by doing so.

It's opinions really. If you restrict a player so he can't get "up close and personal" with a weapon, you are in essence, restricting a form of gameplay.

Personally I find it very satisfying to get up close to say, an elite, and put a ton of shotgun shells straight into his face.

I loved the arbiter levels in halo 2 where you would get up close to a brute, and slice them to proverbial pieces. It was difficult because it meant getting in close to a tough enemy with alot of brute force, but oh so satisfying. You were also limited to your battery lifetime, so I did not find it to be overpowered in single player.

^agreed

but, its their decision whether to put it in or not considering what Masterz said " TAG SPACE "

and also means making new anims for the other biped. do they use the same?
Edited by CorpseManTS on Aug 25, 2012 at 09:35 AM

It would be nice in Flood levels,since most melee attacks don't seem to affect the Flood Combat Forms.Seriously,they're tough as metal when comes to melee attacks with guns.
Edited by Dumb AI on Aug 25, 2012 at 12:59 PM

They are not working on any flood levels as of now, sadly.
With OS realtime infections, we could have a pretty epic flood setup.

The Energy Sword is perfect for Flood attacks.It's super powerful and it can kill things faster than a gun melee.

Not really... with a shotgun you can use cover, you can attack at range, rarely do you end up in melee range with a shotgun, unless you have stunned an enemy with it and are out of ammo so want to go in for the quick melee kill. Our melee's have always been 1 hit kills on flood that don't have energy shields, and we have the spiker and BS for anyone who does want an extra powerful melee.

@lodex, the Elite is our most powerful enemy, and are infinitely more fun to fight with guns than instant lunge weapons.

Really? The flood are one hit kills with melee? Does that hold true on legendary because I seem to remember in SPV2's D40 (Those flood tags were fantastic and I hope to see more of them, although the instant human explosion got old) I see to remember that while minor and major flood elites took one hit melee that any higher took like three melee hits.

You can do the same with a sword? They were both designed to be close quarters weapons, the only difference, as you said, that the shotgun has a larger range. That's the trade-off. Larger range, but needs to reload, and has slight wait between firing (Sword also has a good wait time after striking too).



If you're not getting in someones face with the shotgun, then you're doing it wrong. There's a reason it has a shell spread. So that the closer you get, the more damage capable you are. This bringing it back to it being designed as a close quarter weapon.



pls no :(

Actually canon wise the melee makes sense since the flood's liquify the organs and the body starts to weaken so a melee strike would do a considerable amount of damage. Also in the newer Halo games melee does a lot to flood.




Quote: --- Original message by: Lone Warrior
Quote: --- Original message by: Masters1337
Encounters and enemies are based on interesting gameplay, there's nothing interesting about getting in as close as you can and mashing a button.


If this was the case the shotgun would have zero appeal, when in reality it's probably one of the most sought-after weapons. If you mean in terms of the sword, personally, it's because it doesn't have enough of a draw-back that it appears to 'ruin gameplay'. But, you could argue, it's creating it's own gameplay by doing so.

It's opinions really. If you restrict a player so he can't get "up close and personal" with a weapon, you are in essence, restricting a form of gameplay.

Personally I find it very satisfying to get up close to say, an elite, and put a ton of shotgun shells straight into his face.

Not really... with a shotgun you can use cover, you can attack at range, rarely do you end up in melee range with a shotgun, unless you have stunned an enemy with it and are out of ammo so want to go in for the quick melee kill. Our melee's have always been 1 hit kills on flood that don't have energy shields, and we have the spiker and BS for anyone who does want an extra powerful melee.

@lodex, the Elite is our most powerful enemy, and are infinitely more fun to fight with guns than instant lunge weapons.


Also just because you said that about the shotgun you lost a little bit of my respect.
Edited by Suprememessage on Aug 25, 2012 at 04:02 PM

The shotgun in H1 (and reach as well to an extent) was never an in your face weapon, that came with the abomination that was H2 and was slightly fixed in H3.

Aye I know what happens to an organism when they get turned into a Flood. But parts of their structure also becomes rather solid (such as tentacles if you want to use Halo 3 as an example. Or you could argue that the armour on the Flood also makes it more 'solid'.)

The problem I have with a one hit melee kill is that it just makes it easy to mash the melee button when Flood get in close.

Imo, just make it like a normal enemy. 2-3 hits for melee, and they're down.



Mind elaborating who that was directed to?



This is quickly turning into :opinions: but the H1 shotgun was a short-range/in-your-face weapon. The shell spread proves that. On-top of that, it becomes pretty useless at further range (Although, I'll give you that the shells individually are bloody OP, so even if most of the scatter misses, it'll still do a lot of damage. However, one could argue that Bungie tried rectified this in Halo 2/3.)

In the end, I think we're straying from the initial point... I was arguing in favour of adding the sword in as an alt. weapon, which would always add to the gameplay, but, if it's of your opinion it'll only ruin it, then by all means, don't add it. It is your mod after-all :).

Personally, I know myself, and quite a number of people probably want the sword to be added, and might be disappointed if you don't.

Just my two cents. If in the end run it does actually ruin gameplay, you can always remove it. I mean from what I can gather you're not releasing all the levels at the same time. So you have room for re-balancing and improvement in the future.

Shotguns have always been best for quick fire-reload-fire action. I don't see why range should come into the equation at all. No matter how wide the fire radius, the use of shotguns is always the same.

Shotguns in H1 are rarely used for melee by experienced players. Try using a shotgun in melee, and then try using an AR or, better(though a little slower), a needler. Shotguns are one of the worst weapons for melee. If you use them for in-the-face melee action, you're using them wrong.

H1 shotguns' primary use is for taking out large groups of enemies efficiently.

Imo, energy swords should be left out entirely. I agree with Masters. Not because they're not good weapons. But because they're useless on most of the campaign maps. Especially on SPV3's extended BSPs. If you get an energy sword, you'll be wasting time meleeing a few enemies, and then you'll be wiped out while you try to switch to a gun as a large group charges towards you. On maps with unpredictable AI, energy swords are a stupid idea.
They're useful if you've already played the campaign and can predict encounters, but if all encounters are unpredictable to you; it's not a good idea to charge in with an energy sword to kill a few enemies when you might need a gun at hand a few seconds later.

Masterz ....

He has a point.
Edited by Caboose 14 on Aug 25, 2012 at 06:55 PM

First-off, the idea that a shotgun can be used as a medium range weapon shouldn't have facilitated itself at all imo (This is what I meant about :opinions:).

From what I said before, it can be argued that the Bungie 'fixed' (I use that term loosely as always) the problem Halo 1 had with the shotgun, by making it less lethal at distances in Halo 2/3, while still making it extremely dangerous close-quarters. The whole point of a shotgun is to get up close and personal with an opponent, this is why it's classed as a CQB weapon.



Tbqh, I'm not up-to-date on how 'l33t' (not intended as an insult) players use it on MP. But when it comes down to balance in SP maps, I have a bit of experience.

Why would you need to use a shotgun in melee, then switch to another weapon to finish the job? If you've down the job correctly, that shouldn't happen. If you meant switching to a weapon with long-range capabilities, then I'd direct you to the devastating shotgun/sniper combo.



I'm not gonna contradict this, because it's true, but you could also say the same for the AR due to its large magazine-size and spray-and-pray ability.



We're straying into opinions again. One man's useless weapon, is another man's ceremonial killing-machine after-all.



If you do this with an energy sword then you're dying for a good reason. Probably because you rushed yourself into a stupid situation. Like I said before; the sword was meant to be a fancy way at doing melee, as well as taking down other melee-inclined opponents (Flood/Brutes).

I see where you're coming from, and that's that you think the energy sword is a very situational weapon. I.e that you can only use it sometimes without opening yourself up to dying. That is where knowing when and where to use a weapon comes in.

If you rush into a melee duel with a bunch of hunters with nought but a plasma pistol you're probably gonna die if you don't know how to deal with them. Each weapon has its purpose, and the sword has its own too.



It's not a good idea to rush into any fight not knowing what you're up against.
Edited by Lone Warrior on Aug 25, 2012 at 07:01 PM

That's why Bungie allowed us to have 2 weapons in the first place.Have the right pair of weapons for the right situation.

I was directing my comment towards Masters1337

uhh In halo 1 and reach they are ONLY in your face weapons, because their scatter is ridiculous otherwise. idk if I just play halo completely different from anyone else, but there have been very few times when I've ever fired a shotgun at any distance but point blank range in any halo game, ESPECIALLY in reach and halo one, because I always follow up a shotgun shot with a melee, with devastating results

I meant try using a shotgun in melee, and then try doing the same with an AR or an a needler. ARs are almost equivelant and might be slightly better in melee than shotguns. And needlers are slow but 1 hit kill melee by default.



My point is if you're playing through the campaign for the first time, or with new/fresh encounters, then you can't possibly know what you're up against until you've actually started the fight. There are encounters in which you take out a few enemies, and then a large group appears in a dropship, by elevator, or otherwise. In these situations, it wouldn't be a good idea to have an energy sword in hand unless you have time to switch weapons, which you might not in some situations.

How long would it even take to switch?It's not like you're disassembling and assembling a laser cannon.
Edited by Dumb AI on Aug 25, 2012 at 07:40 PM

You must play differently, because the H1 shotty has ridiculous range and power. The only time I use a shotty at point blank range on targets is when they are elites on legendary and red or above.
Edited by Masters1337 on Aug 25, 2012 at 07:43 PM

If the encounters are done well, especially for Legendary, then you could easily be taken surprise by an ambush that gets within fire ranging before you can switch. Thus an energy sword would be useless unless you have Sprint, which Masterchief doesn't. (ODST does though I guess)

E: Although I suppose I'm assuming the energy sword is slow to sheathe. If it could be sheathed at a normal speed, then I suppose I would be entirely wrong as you could switch easily.

---

Edited by Jaz on Aug 25, 2012 at 07:46 PM

If I used a shotgun in melee it will one-hit KO anything (even a hunter if used right). ARs are good at short range and dealing with multiple squishy targets before reloading. Needlers are good at medium and short range.

The way I see it is like this:

Shotgun - Close Range; rapes anything
AR - Good at Short and Medium range
Needler - Good at medium, but better at short range. Offsetted by the fact that its melee does more damage. Once the player realises this he'll be more inclined to fight battles at short range, this is where the weapon begins to shine.




And as Dumb AI pointed out earlier, that's why you've got 2 weapons, each weapon is situational. You choose your tool, and you choose how to fight the encounter. That's part of the freedom of gameplay.



You're making it seem like switching weapons takes about 5 minutes, when in fact it takes mere seconds.

If you've got a smart level designer at the helm, he'll place weapons accordingly to what encounter you're going to face. From there on in, it's up to the player how he wants to deal with it.

Whether he wants to camp the bottom of said dropship/elevator with a sword or not is entirely up to him.



If the encounters are done well the player should get a fighting chance and not get gang banged in the first few seconds. You're also assuming that this encounter has absolutely no cover at all, and therefore the player wouldn't be able to take cover, switch, and continue fighting. A lack of cover would be a symptom of poor level design in an encounter as hard as you're making out.

The Energy Sword was never really slow to sheathe in H2/3, you could switch weapons fairly easily iirc.
Edited by Lone Warrior on Aug 25, 2012 at 07:51 PM

In fact,all it takes is a few seconds and a press of a single key.

In some H1 mods containing the energy sword, it was very slow to sheathe.

Though yes, it's easy to sheathe in H3. Not a very good example of something against the energy sword, I'll admit.

But Lone, does a shotgun really kill elites on Legendary better than an AR or needler in melee? In MP(I don't play much SP), shotguns are pretty inaccurate and not very strong in melee.

AR is fairly useless against elite energy shields, and as I pointed out earlier, a shotgun in melee range is a one hit kill for anything (Although in Legendary, I'm not entirely sure. But it is definitely still the better option over the AR.). As for the Needler.... if you're point blank and a supercombine needler explosion goes off you can damage yourself. Although this only occurs at melee range.
Edited by Lone Warrior on Aug 25, 2012 at 08:15 PM

H1 shotgun has crazy range.
Melee times for most weapons is fairly similar.
My two cents.

Fix'd.

this... sword thing... escalated quickly.

let's make it like this : the E-sword handle only recognizes Sangheilian hands. scratch the sword and give the hammer!

Ah yes the great gameplay master himself enlightens me.

Lone warrior is alot more experienced with gameplay than you are. I value his opnion over yours anyday and you should too. It's good that you guys will be getting pepzee on your team in the near future, since it is once again clear that you people need a person who knows what nice gameplay is all about.

Now having that rant about your inexperience out of the way, this is a more detailed analysis of the Shotgun in halo 1. The shotgun was mostly featured in levels with flood. This meant of course that it was mostly to be used in situations where the flood are rushing you and getting into close range. Essentially when you shoot them in the face, you could have room for a fast powerful melee based weapon.

If you people have made all your weapons insta-kill flood with a melee, then that is just unexciting and too easy. It would be much better if the flood stayed true to their spunge like reputation, requiring at least several blows from normal weapons to beat it down. Then you include the energy sword, and you get that awesome ninja-like experience when surrounded by flood. Slicing and dicing them into oblivion.

THAT is cool. I recommend you listen to the advice given by people who know what they are talking about. But in the end you do what you want, and its your map's quality that will bear the consequences.

psh... a-psh... that would be no fun! :P

Nope.

What genre does all other Halo games belong to?
Edited by Dumb AI on Aug 26, 2012 at 12:12 PM

2: Hip-hop
3: R&B
Reach: Porno

:P

Couldn't of put it better myself.