I know the community wants more firefight maps. I have many plans for a whole crowd of firefight maps. So my question for you, the community is:

Do you guys really care whether dropships and phantoms look absolutely perfect like bungie firefight, or do you think a dropship that can that flies, but not like a ballerina is ok. The gun turret on the dropships don't shoot, the dropship animations look amateur and rather unproffesional as long as the map seems to be well-planned and fun?

(simple version)
Do you guys care whether the visuals of phantoms and dropships are kind of bad, but as long as the map seems well-planned and fun, then you guys are happy?

I wanna know what you guys think, since of course, when we release maps, we don't make them for just ourselves, we want the community to enjoy them.

Xoronatus

My opinion
Firefight maps suck
Worst thing ever to be introduced to Custom Edition. There has not yet been a single good firefight map
Gamma's and Lodex'es were on the right path but still didn't impress me
Edited by MatthewDratt on Jan 6, 2011 at 08:18 PM

Indeed with Dratt. I never have been a fan of firefight anyway. Now there's map after map of firefights coming out. Thank god there is only one bloodgulch firefight though.

Well then I will try to impress you even more. (If I can :) Well, but do you guys like looks or gameplay better?
Edited by Xoronatus on Jan 6, 2011 at 08:31 PM

If you want to impress me. Both.
I don't mean to be a pre-critic on something Ive havent played yet. But taking some time in 3ds max to make a dropship sway isn't that hard. And you 'waves' will prob just be. Wave 1: 3 Grunts. Wave 2: 6 Grunts. Wave 3: 6 Grunts, 1 Elites. 'NEW WEAPON SO YOU CAN STOP USING THE CRUDDY HALO 3 PISTOL!!!!!11!!1!1!"
I'd say take my critic there and learn from what I said. I hate the idea of starting easy to hard. Its gets boring and repetitive. Or maybe make a campaign styled map =0
Edited by MatthewDratt on Jan 6, 2011 at 08:45 PM

Firefight-Descent could be awesome.

Have you missed http://forum.halomaps.org/index.cfm%3Fpage=topic&topicID=35806&start=1
IDK if it got picked back up

actually believe it or not, in my first firefight maps that i made (not released), i actually did a surprisingly good job in terms of gameplay when i played. (i was proud of myself :) so i decided, by gathering more experience and putting a lot of work, thought, examination, time, testing, and creativity, I could make something that I think could be special. So that gave me the idea of taking those little firefight maps that i made for my own pleasure, and trying to make ones that had more effort, planning, well that list of stuff that I wrote before. then I could release those if they're good to give other people some fun maps to enjoy. I am going to start working on the my first firefight map now.
Edited by Xoronatus on Jan 6, 2011 at 10:57 PM

I sort of adreewith dratt. However, I believe the only other true firefight worthy map besides mentioned just got canceled.

Oh come on guys, whers da love? just kidding lolz.

Not canceled, per-se... More like delayed indefinitely. By the time I pick it back up, it may not matter anymore...

I'm saying that by the time I get back to it, there may be better content out there. But it will still be done someday, no matter what.

That's what she said?

Learn from the pros

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63_LHQoVyxU

U biased. I find nothing wrong with them. In my case, I mixed H3 weapons with ODST weapons, and threw in a silenced AR and a Ma5k. It turned out to be the ultimate weapon set.

OMG, I have watched that Reach firefight video so many times. Yeah, that's what I have been thinking about for my firefight maps that I want to make. I want to make them play well and feel more like Bungie firefight.

Actually, it is. I always modifiy the attributes of my weapons in order to have perfect balance. What I had in my map was an interesting and balanced weapon set. Remember Pitfall? The weapons were balanced in that map too (except for the splaz0r, unfortunately).
Also, it's not randomly thrown together. I chose each for a purpose. The Ma5K is in there for a reason. The ODST pistol replaces the crap H3 pistol, etc.
Edited by MoooseGuy on Jan 8, 2011 at 06:25 AM

True, true.

And yes, my opinion on looks vs. gameplay is, have both in healthy amounts!
It's time consuming, but worh it. Such examples of beauty and gameplay include:

Precipice
SnowGrove
Portent
Tensity

...and others.

Please please please for the love of god and all things Halo holy, stop making crappy wannabe firefight maps for CE. Firefight will and never will be done to a usable and satisfactory standard on CE. The tools and graphics just aren't there. Sorry to rain on many peoples parades, but it is a reality you all need to come to terms with. Here's a quick 10 item list of why all firefight CE sucks...

1. Graphics. If it don't look pretty and handle well visually while scooting about a map, it fails!

2. Scripts. So many of the firefight attributes you need to create can only be done thru scripts,
which as we all know only sync/works for host.

3. As number 2 stated, if you can't properly co-op...what's the point? You might as well play
campaign...

4. Scoring. Scoring would need to be script handled, and again would work only for host.

5. AI is lame for CE. FACE IT!!!! Noone in the community can or ever will be able to create a
new modified AI handling system, and let's face it.... an 8 year old could school Legendary
AI.

6. Weapon sets. I have yet to see anywhere a fully acceptable weapon created from another
Halo title. The resources just aren't there to fully develope them. Name one weapon that
functions exactly like another Halo titles, that doesn't involve the use of vehicle style tag
hacks, or scripts, or another half arsed tag swapping or tricking. If your gonna do a weap
or vehicle, do it right! Use a proper tagging system!

7. Animations. Yeah......what can really be said here except that all community animations
besides a few fp ones I have seen over the many years, just plain suck! Half of them
make you feel as if your playing with the fps turned down to 12!

8. Creativity. Here's the one that really disappointments. Almost all or most of them, rely on
maps or layout that resemble actual ODST or Reach maps. If I wanted to play firefight on a
map that has been around since a console release.....I would play that instead. Let's see
some better thought and layout, not mirror images or copies of overdone and actual game
release maps!

9. Engine handling. Let's face it, CE is less than subpar to handle anything close to firefight.
The melee system is still suckish, and the physics handling for such a gametype ruin the
experience. In terms of a CE able to handle it, you are better off waiting to see when and if
H3 is released to PC to start making some descent firfight maps. (you see how i
referenced a map there)

10. Replay value. There is none. Each time you fire up the CE firefight, you can almost
guarantee to predict how the AI will spawn and react to everything. The AI tools are not
there. The maps get boring due to graphical non-goodness, and you can oly stand playing
solo for so long. To this day, after hundreds of Reach firefighting, I am still amazed and
surprised what the AI throws at me! Always seeing something new!

So now unless someone with a time machine or magic coding skills can re-write the game engine and pull off some sort of miracle, noone ever stands a chance of creating anything remotely near the title of being called "Firefight".

1. This seems to apply to this game in general. No real argument is presented in this case.

2. Firefight maps are done in singleplayer in this game anyway. That doesn't mean it won't be enjoyable. People in ODST play firefight by themselves too, if they want. It doesn't have to be multiplayer. Plus, some firefight maps include AI allies anyways.

3. Anything wrong with that? We don't need an exact replica of something. Because this is CUSTOM edition, we can take an idea, such as Bungie's firefight, and adapt it to our own style, gameplay, and overall parameters. Trying to make a copy of something is no fun. Unless it is, of course, Sandtrap *nods to Jesse*.

4. Scoring is done in some firefight maps, by completed rounds or waves. The multiplayer issue is irrelevant, per my previous statements.

5. Lololololol gnademassica much? It is possible to "improve" the ai in this game through tag modification. And btw, I never beat legendary in this game. Not everyone is super-awesome-pro.

6. Your comment here was done without much research, as many weapons that have been created to replicate the functions in the other games are fully working. Look at Jesse's guns (not his old ones).

7. What does this have to do with firefight?

8 .This comment really only applies to my own map, other ones are fine dude...

9. As I said before, firefight maps in CE can be a stylized interpretation of Halo 3's and Reach's firefight gameplay. This doesn't mean it's not fun. It doesn't mean it sucks. Your lag problems may have come from a map like b40-firefight, but with proper control and balancing, not all firefight maps in CE lag like that.

10. I lol'd. But I have devised a system to allow for partial randomization fo wave types. Some lesser firefight maps may be the same 10 waves, but better ones don't do this.
Edited by MoooseGuy on Jan 8, 2011 at 10:54 AM

Ok so let me get this right..... you think that solo firefight with lame AI buddies is as good or enjoyable as actual Firefight? Although if you have never played Halo or any Halo title on Legendary, you might change your mind about the AI system once you did.

Scoring by keeping count of waves or rounds is pointless. Noone plays firefight just to see how long they last. They play to prove how much they can rack up in points and medals before their lives run out, wave count is just secondary bragging.

I dont think you quite understand the AI part. I am referring to adding new ways for the AI to react to new situations. You cannot modify those thru the tags. You need to add new strings, new sub-strings, pathfinding indexes, whole new set of animations, etc.... most of which cannot be done by simply modifying tag values. We are stuck with what is at core with the game for that, unless someone figured out how to add in custom chunks into the tags?

The weapons....maybe you don't play much Halo outside CE, or have much knowledge of tag editing in other games, but CE weapons that are based off other Halo titles DO NOT function anywhere near smooth enough. Granted yes, there are a few that manage to do the job, but not good enough for a stickler like me. The graphics end of the game in reality, do account for much of the weapon functionality. Imagine having a plasma pistol overcharge, and instead of a brilliant and full range partical and effect system, you only see what looks like green fog and a few sparks fly out? Lame!

The engine part you missed completely. The net code has nothing to do with how the physics feel in game. I suffer from no lag, as I keep my PC up to date hardware and software wise. (unless I'm running a VS compiler, Halo 2 map compiler and a video converting app while playing Halo on a dual Geforce 9600GT SLI rig with a phenom X3, 4gig ram, and a dedicated lan with Xfinity, which I get 12mb download and 6mb upload according to ip testing, lag aint happening) The things I am referring to, is the playability compared to other Halo titles. Halo and CE feel like a completely different game compared to others. At least in 2 to Reach, the handling of your character, the environment, weapon, vehicle, object and scenery physics have pretty much stayed constant. The engine is just too dated.

And as for your maps, I have no beef with them. You at least TRY to get things right. And many of those things I mentioned have been done to a great degree by you. But lets face it... for the newbie community members that now make up the whole, we won't see a whole of action here that is good enough to justify downloading and keeping it for a long time. Most of us have moved on to better engines and tool-sets for games that actually almost really do allow you to create ANYTHING you can think of. UDK being the best example of it.

I don't meant to bash anyone for their work, or the effort they put in. I only mean to say that the effort could be best used to create something completely new and unique to Halo, not mimicking something we already have. Perhaps the CE community should start looking into new gametypes? I am sure some people out there have better gametype ideas than the same old firefight, invasion, ctf, slayer and koth. Just look at the many gametypes they created for Halo 3 in forge. Someone should do dedicated maps for things like that.

I myself have moved on to UDK and making good solid maps for H2Vista. I find that a good solid map with much detail and care, can prove to be a better play experiance than making lots of cool newer title additions. For example, I did a final version of the H2MT Icefields. It plays phenomal on the H2 engine. Added in a boat load of environment changes to really make you feel like your in the cold deserted canyon of Icefields. This experience would have been ruined by adding in weapons from other titles. I have noticed that most weapons Bungie has created fit a certain way into maps. They are cool, but don't take away from the awe that is the beauty of their maps. On the console, I tend to notice less whatw eapons I have, how they work and so-on, compared to how and where I am on a map. I sometimes stop dead playing just to admire a certain part of a map.

Maybe I am just a crazy old man, but whatever. It's only my opinion anyway, and I am not the absolute authority on what is good and what is not.....only in my home can I do that.

Yeah...sorry. I get carried away in my old age. I have a copy you can have. Anyway, I had an idea for an interesting gametype. How about a level like 'Nightfall meets "Tip of the Spear, in which you have 2 teams. Elite and Spartan. The objective is capture "intel" (flags) of the enemy base, and return them to HQ. After all flags have been captured, it then opens up the "paint the target" portion. In which the Spartan team has to paint high value targets for airstrike. Kinda of like a ctf meets assault meets generator defense? You could set a limit on lives and would end once the other team is dead, or the goal has been achieved? Haven't thought about how to do it yet, but just throwing it out there...
Edited by Twinreaper on Jan 8, 2011 at 11:56 AM

But yeah, when I looked at my ideas, I agree with Moose that it needs a balance of looks and gameplay. Like Solitude-Firefight had the amazing looks, but awful gameplay. But, Mud Skirmish, while not as cool as Solitude definately had better gameplay. Yeah, when you have something that doesn't look good, it really affects the feel of the game. Then I will try to mix both, as well as some creativity. :D