I've noticed as of late... Well, who am I kidding, I've always noticed, that as of the latest generation of mappers, people seem to have been forcibly set on destroying our community. I'm not the first one to say this, but it seems that there is a sort of "elitism" among people who have been here the longest, releasing the best and perhaps highest-quality stuff. I'm not going to name names, but I'm pretty sure that you guys know who I am talking about.
These elitists are killing our community by constantly flaming people who are asking questions to get them situated, or by discouraging mods and box maps. Ladies and gentlemen, I do not think that new people on the matchmaking scene are going to make a Yoyorast Island right out of the box. While that does happen from time to time (Heck, the example I just used was an example of that happening), most of the time these guys start with box maps or Blood Gulch mods. That's how they get started, and being able to release those gives them hope and keeps them in the community. If they get flamed to death for releasing a box map or asking for directions on how to make a BG mod, they are discouraged from making any more maps and then leave this community.
For example (And Kenney, I have nothing against you, this was just the first post I came across like this):

Example in bold, original thread: http://forum.halomaps.org/index.cfm%3Fpage=topic&topicID=22976.
But this elitism is a stupid thing indeed, because none of us here, and, with the exception of Snafubar or Tweek over at Modacity, in the entire community in general, are "professional". NONE of us are getting paid to do this stuff. We do this because it's fun. It's a hobby. We ENJOY it. So don't take everything so seriously. If you don't like a map, don't download it. Dennis is nice enough to provide this entire site and all the bandwidth that comes with it to us at no charge, with very little advertising. You don't want that to go away, or this community will fall into shambles.
However, I'm not saying that this is entirely the community's fault, or any elitist's fault.
Sometimes, it's the maturity level of the new people to come here to make maps that prevents them from progressing. The reason why this place is looked down upon as inferior to the people up in H2Vista (Or Modacity, I never really liked the name change) is because of the ridiculous, implausible, and downright noobish suggestions that spawn from here. Before I was IP banned from H2V, for instance, I saw a thread which ridiculed the Extinction V2 thread, talking about how stupid some of the suggestions were (The one that sticks out in my brain is "They wanted to put a flyable Pillar of Autumn in the map, then when they were asked where to put it, they couldn't figure out where to put it and suggested under the map."). These things are standard-issue when dealing with some of the age groups of beginning mappers and, indeed, a significant portion of Halo players. These guys seem hopeless now, but they'll improve. My first two maps were BG mods with nukes added. Nukes ripped from other maps, to be honest, and used without credit. But I was immature then. I was like most of the community here now. While I'm not a great and famous mapper, I haven't made any maps that you guys have heard of on my own, I do know what I'm doing. If I spent more than a month on a given project, then I can do great things, as I've seen with my SWMT project. But I digress. Give the newbie mappers here a shot, guys. If you don't like the maps, don't download them.
While, sadly, Halomaps has become known as a home for stupid, noobish, and implausible suggestions which come standard with beginning mappers/12 year olds, it is also the base of our community. And people who are demonstrating immature behaviors best seen over at H2V over here are destroying this base from the inside out. A good example of this happening is this thread: http://forum.halomaps.org/index.cfm%3Fpage=topic&topicID=22950. I know I'm one to talk, considering my former behavior over at H2V, but I've grown up. I don't do that stuff anymore. Guys, if you want to be /b/tarded, you can go back to 4Chan, or even Modacity. That's encouraged there, it's frowned upon here.
And this is not contained inside just one thread, this is spreading throughout the entire community. I don't know where it started, if it was with Recycle Bin or Selentic (Something's telling me they are one and the same anyway), or someone completely different entirely, it's eroding Dennis' patience and beginning to lower the guillotine on our community. Once Halomaps forums goes out, the newbie mappers are going to go to either H2V, which will probably close down their forums due to the influx and find a new, more secret forum, Filefront, which doesn't have the best or most reliable userbase, or Halomods, which focuses more on Halo PC mapping than Halo CE mapping. The division of the community which results will lead to a falling-out of all the new mappers.
While this does get rid of the hopeless noobs, it also gets rid of any future promising mappers.
Once all the good mappers of our current community begin to lower their output, so to speak, there will be no new mappers to come in and replace them. There are 3 generations of "professional" (If you can consider being good at a hobby "professionalism") mappers active now, Masterz's generation, my own and Kenney's generation, then HDoan's generation. There is already 1 generation which has moved on and stopped making maps, Arteen's generation, and then there is the generation which is up-and-coming right now, the generation which makes up the majority of the mappers here, is the generation which we are killing off, and by killing them off, we shorten the lifespan of this already aging game. What I am saying is, unless we do something to change this, this newest generation may just be the last generation of HCE mappers we have.

Tl;dr: Some elitists and /b/tards are screwing up the community.

I swear that I made this post a few months back.

Case and point:




You guys are really immature and selfish, thinking that you are the king of the internet.

Guys if we all just helped or even listened to the new members then they can become Just as good as anyone else here even in the highest rank. Yes many new members start out here by making Bloodgulch mods or boxmaps and even then it's okay. We all start somewhere and thats a start. So if we all just answer there questions not flame them or ignore them and be nice to them and encourage them to make mods or maps and help them along the way then the community will have good mappers and good maps for everyone. Everyone at halomaps COULD BE Just as good as bungie or Gearbox or THQ and everyone else! So why don't we just give everyone a chance and answer alot of questions including if there is any in H2V forum lets help them too. Everyone here should be treated the same. So if CMT is treated very nicely so should new members here! Lets all help are community and not flame and fulfill requests and answer questions that are posted or are asked on xfire or threw PM messages. Now lets not spam either thats just immature but lets not go there. Now Lets Go Help Halomaps And ALL members in it!




-Pakar45

Why is it called my generation? Also many of the greatest started simple, stop bashing for learning the basics. Dane started by editing skins, Frain started by taking millions of screenshots and copying it frame by frame instead of custom animations. I started from editing bloodgulch, campaign and making box maps. We all learn from this and move on, it's a phase. It's the halo version of puberty, except without the hair.

^ exactly well said! That would be a point in my post to or atleast was meant to be something like that. :D !

^ yeah that thread is not true and may have been true but is not anymore so stop dragging that damn thing around with you it's useless now. So maybe if you actually helped aswell as everyone else then maybe it would change!!

I don't see how this makes me selfish, and I do not think that I am the king of the internet. You were making a map request, and that I was pointing out that no down time would have to be added into making the map by learning HEK.

Of course, I should not defend myself, because I know what I have said before

yes CLS Grunt you did make a post like this... About my Ultigulch varient

argh... I need to get Ultigulch_2 out...

Its alot better SO FAR

Of course, now the newest generation of mappers/modders is straining to reach the standards of the 'elitists', but failing that they just resort to the useless bashing they see going on, but also fail at that because they have no actual experience to judge by.

Not that I'm one to speak, but at least I don't try to judge other peoples creations, I just use my natural aesthetic tastes to propose what looks good and what looks like it needs to be changed.

In fact, the current generation is split in two. The one that spends all its time in this part of the CE forum, and the one that spends all of its time in the help section of the forum. Notice that one has a relatively steady output of content, and the other has an erratic, nonsensical downpour of selfish crap.

My point is, if everybody in the newest generation actually WORKED on stuff, they would be on their way to creating good content. Of course, there are some exceptions on both ends of the spectrum.

Again, I'm not the one to talk.

just following the trend...
Edited by Headhunter09 on Dec 29, 2008 at 10:22 AM

Chains is right. Your pleas for civility are falling on deaf ears.

This is not true: http://www.xfire.com/profile/spartan11711/
I don't think that is a good example because the
"selentic is back" is an obvious troll.

Don't insult my age group >:V. Actually, go ahead. I forgot what the average 12 year old is because I've been on winter break too long.
Overall, what you posted has already been said multiple times (same with what I am saying), and just this time everyone who needs it is going to be "tl;dr". Unfortunately I never saw the "Tl;dr: Some elitists and /b/tards are screwing up the community.", and read the whole thing >:(
Edited by gruntfromhalo on Dec 29, 2008 at 11:19 AM

I don’t normally weigh in on these type of discussions because I have such a different perspective than most of you: One that comes with years of been-there-done-that-three-times-oh-no-not-again experience.
The nature and tenor of communities change over time. Halo CE has remained remarkably stable considering the age of the game. This lament of “destroying the community” has been going on since the game was first released. The “community” will dissolve eventually, it is the natural evolution of these things, but is still remarkably strong. The problem is your [the members in general] perspective not the actual community. The current members are being what they are and for the most part have always been: Teenagers or young adults with all the good and bad that goes with that.

Elitists only have the authority you give them and I don’t give them ANY authority whatsoever over what maps are allowed to be uploaded to Halo Maps for download. ALL Halo CE maps that pass the play test are allowed to be uploaded and I encourage anyone who has made a map to share it regardless of what others may say.
The Halo Maps forum is for everyone and especially for those who are new to map making and Halo CE. With that mandate often comes a desire by some to try and keep the forum as a clique for those “in” and to keep other people out. It is the natural inclination of teenagers, young adults and many adults to be exclusive instead of inclusive. I do not and will not allow it here and have and will continue to ban people who act in opposition to the stated mandate.
The simplest thing is to do it act properly and be an example to others. Post helpful messages, restrain from using strong or derogatory language when offering an opinion (example: get rid of words like “fail”, “sucks” and “lame”) and think about what you are saying before you post it. Think about how others will interpret your words.

There are two very different Halo CE sections in this forum. The Technical section is very helpful for people and I notice that are a large number of members who post there NEVER post in the Halo CE General section. The Technical section is well behaved and stays on topic with very little moderation on my part. This section requires most of my time because even though it is about Halo CE it is broader in scope than the technical section. That is why there is no off-topic section in these forums.

Don’t be negative, don’t call people names, don’t get personal and remember not everyone will agree with your opinion or like what you like.

...and the award for best post ever goes to Dennis!!

Dennis what you said will now make me to upload all of my new good improved maps to halomaps.org So now there will be more maps of course they may not be all CE maps and may be h2v maps. so i will make even more map moedls and maps! Thank you Dennis

Honestly, it's the attitude that makes this so sad. It's hypocritical. The community isn't dying nor is it terrible. It's based on the spirit and the willingness of the community to make and produce stuff, good or bad. On that, I rate the community on a higher scale.

However, the attitude of these so called "elitists" towards the newer members is despicable. Half of the drama queens at Modacity are extremely aggressive towards something that looks ugly. It's sad, especially considering that there could have been so many great modelers or better modifiers out there if they had been a bit better consoled.

Halomaps is one of the better places I enjoy spending my time on working on how to become better because it's well moderated and the people here are somewhat considerate about your comfort. Mainly, it is a good place to start for someone just trying to get started or do new stuff. Halomaps also has most of the resources, if not all, that you need to start doing the simple stuff in Halo CE.

The problem with the community is that between the Veterans (doing this a long time) and the Newbies (doing this for a short time) and even the Sophomores (in between time lengths). We got to learn to be cooperative and considerate of each other. I'm seeing this improve and worsen in places, but the general attitude towards newbies is getting better.

As long as YouTube is around, the Halo Custom Edition community will never die. Many people who play halo for a while tend to go on YouTube, and search up cool videos in their spare time, out of boredom. Then, eventually, one will stumble across a Blood Gulch mod, and go: "Hey, this is cool! Where can I play this?" Then he/she will Google search blood gulch mods, and eventually enter modding Halo PC, until they find even better mods, that are made possible only by Halo Custom Edition. By then, their curiosity will be piqued, and they will want to join us.

Fix this please.

Great Post Dennis...some very good points you've made.

I am quite possibly one of the oldest modders here, being born in the early 60's. My dad likes putting together picture puzzles, my wife likes doing crossword puzzles, and well, I like modding Halo maps. I find it a very challenging endeavor, and after uploading a map, I get a great deal of personal satisfaction if others download and enjoy playing it. As far as my wife thinking its a waste of valuable time, at least it doesn't get thrown out in the trash like a crossword puzzle (well maybe the recycle bin)!

I find typically that the older you get, the less openly critical you become of another's creation or handiwork, and try to give more constructive criticism without insulting them. Don't get me wrong, there are people (of all ages) that you just can't seem to please...they will find something to critique on just about anything. I try to not make negative comments about someone's map, and if I do make a comment, I try to say something positive, otherwise, I won't say anything at all. When I have read some fairly critical comments here, I've checked from time to time how old the poster was, and they are typically between 12 and 16 years old. Having a 12 year old son, I write it all off as just part of growing up.

As a famous person said (not famous enough for me to remember them), it is best to learn from mistakes. Criticism is a way of pointing out mistakes, and a way to learn from them. I remember a while ago, when I made a topic about my map, and then Advancebo makes the observation that I didn't give credit, and everyone started jumping in on that. Well, I've learned, and I try to give credit on everything I make now, partly because I didn't exactly make most of it. Flaming is an extreme way of criticism, but in reality, it does work better, because the reader gets the point quicker. I'm not saying that everyone should be flamed, but if someone has to, I should, because I made this post.

Edit: I just realized that I didn't cite the source for the quote at the top...
Edited by Gamma927 on Dec 29, 2008 at 09:30 PM

dont think im trying to ruin anything in this topic... im just sayin that everything on this site in the downloads section is not copyrighted so if you dont credit oh well for the person who mad it its their fault they uploaded it. Don't get me rong you can credit if you would like to be kind and generous but its not mandatory.

I know, but it helps a lot to credit them, and appease dozens of potential... (can't think of the word)

Nvm, post was deleted.
Edited by Lone Warrior on Dec 30, 2008 at 12:18 PM

This, Halo CE, is a hobby and a game not a business or a competition. So if you make maps or models to gain praise from other people you will be sorely disapointed. If you make maps because you enjoy it then it doesn't matter what others say or think.

Selentic mostlikely lol when he came back everyones mood changed in a bad way

what... are you actualy talking to me?

oh :D i love staring at the ceiling but what do you mean then? "so, are we cool now?"

if its between you and me? then yes

why you gotta go spamming up forums that dont belong to you like dat
/gangster imitation

and as far as dennis' post goes, apart from reporting what happened when this sit was first put up when most of us were not around here, alot of it was stuff that you guys should have been able to figure out yourselves. people put down maps they dont like. people also go out and do drugs. what am i going to do? model myself after them? i think not.
its common sense tbh

Talking to yourself mr. impostor?

I think not making topics like this is the message...
* watches drama *

I see some people haven't been paying attention to the discussion. Contribute or leave. Flaming and harassing others will not be tolerated. Get back on topic or lose your posting privileges.
Edited by Dennis on Dec 30, 2008 at 07:59 PM

Check the age...it falls within the range.

look at it this way, all the new people we are getting are a GOOD thing. custom edition is getting more and more popular,which is astounding considering the games age. Yes, while the number of new mappers means more box maps and BG mods, it also increase the life of custom edition and also the possibility of another great map being released, you never know, the n00b you insult today may release the next yoyorast... just something to think about