I remember a time when people didn't care how well a map was modeled, or whats tags he used, weather the map was large or small, if the guy who made it could animate texture or tag. all as long as it was fun and something new and original. Currently I have been seeing a lot of new members doing a lot of simple things, that in reality are very very cool and these members are eager to share there projects and have a good aditude when they posted it. Then someone comes along and bashes it becuase it isn't modeled right or because the method that was used to make it was nothing more than a few tools and a brush. That dose'nt change the fact that its cool and looks like something enjoyable, is that not what brought us into ce in the first place? The more I see how members put down other members becuase there goals are too high up, or are to simple and not made correctly, the it makes me want leave ce and look for a alternative. Im sure we can all remeber a time where we could release a boxy map with boxy weapons and some horribly made textures and we could all play it, have fun, and congratulate them. then they could improve by them selfs. I was never a modeler or a animator its just the community that made me one, for if a made a simple fun map like that again it was not accepted by us all and was brought down in flames, and our hard work was lost in time. I'm talking about the members who are eager and excited about this community, not the ones who have the largest ego in the world and flip out when the tiniest mistake is pointed out in a kind way, or the one who flames other members and posts things without knowing the entire facts and thinking he is some sort of god.
My point is simple and I hope you can all understand. for I have too been like this several times in the past, and from here on out I plan to change for the better and hope you can all do the same.

EDIT This is my last post for a while im going to take a break.
Edited by CLS_GRUNT on Nov 9, 2008 at 01:23 AM

Thanks for the post grunt, Much needed. It's simple, the CE community has evolved in a bad, snob fashion that's no longer about fun but more about bragging supposed skills and such. Everyone's making his little ''team'' project that takes years to complete, most of the time just copies of bungie's stuff... Taking pride in the fact other teams do not know how to do and whatever is done, if it's not built on their model, it's bad. If it's not plane modelling, it's bad. all those things... oh well.

Well I hope I'm not considered a basher. I try my hardest to encourage the mapmakers of the community.

didnt expect that from u grunt... but gj, ur heading the right way

It's never going to change. In every community it's like this. With the exception of the game communities that can only mod and not actually making content. Most of the time good criticism is taken negatively then burst out into an argument. The first step is people learning that criticism shouldn't be taken as an insult and more as a suggestion to make their work better. Nothing is perfect.

ur right except ppl here dont actually just criticize, they insult u. a good way to criticize a person is to tell them "you need to fix this, this n this..." or "you made a mistake here", but ppl dont do that here. they say "ew" or "quit halo" or "fail". those r insults.

Sometimes people turn criticism into self opionion. I do however agree with your post grunt. Everytime I see a thread about a team being brought togethor, shouldn't they be encouraged to try at least, but the end result is everyone attacks the founded team with insults that will only discourage them.
A lot of maps that are made usually only contain one asset, its either gameplay or it is aesthetically pleasing, very few maps have both properties. I would definately rather play a map that has good well thought out gameplay rather than having stunning visuals.

E: Typo

Edited by H Guru on Nov 9, 2008 at 04:28 AM

My first map release, Christmas Halo ( http://hce.halomaps.org/index.cfm?fid=3399) is a prime example of an ugly box map that people really enjoyed. I really didn't even balance the weapons properly. Yet somehow, it's originality made it very popular. To make a popular map, you need a balance between originality and gameplay. Visuals don't matter very much. If we wanted to all make the best looking maps, we should go to crysis mapping or something that actually allows for good visuals. CMT Snow Grove has tons of new weapons, which is probably what made people download. I always download a map when the map maker has a new weapon in the screenshots, despite how ugly it may look. The "classic" maps lack that originality. And the other main reason CMT Snow Grove is popular has to be the gameplay. It is very balanced and plays excellently. Now, lets look at Seclusion. The weapons are all classic, which wasn't that big of a blow because that's not the only original thing you can make. Look at all the custom textures. And the map model looks very good, it looks more detailed than Cmt Snow Grove's. But, gameplay. This map gets boring, and therefore lacks the gameplay of CMT Snow Grove. And besides, custom textures aren't near as original than a bunch of custom weapons in a humorous map. Christmas Halo aced the originality, Seclusion aced the graphics. And then, CMT Snow Grove aced all 3 categories. Compare that to the amount of downloads.

when will you and your team release bigland?

I doubt you grasped the understanding of that paragraph...

The thing about critism, it depends on how you take it. If you take it badly without thinking of what they said, you won't become a better modeler; but if you take it correctly, you can become that modeler you've always wanted to be. It also depends on who is dishing out the critism, back when sel (may he rest in pieces) was around, he used flames in critism to get his point across. But the thing is, somehow it helped me, and it might have helped others like me. I looked past all the flames and focused on what he was saying, then improved and it made me better. I can take flames though, but that is just how I am. I could type more, but i'm tired and cold.

tl;dr, critism is fair if you know how to take it correctly.

And it's not true, the community hasn't been like this forever. Say it started around last year and has been getting un supportable now with the kind of Algerian Integrist Behavior such as ''Plane model or u suck lololol"

Do I know you? Also that map was a bad box map I made a little over a year ago. And also you'd have to pay me >9000 dollars to release it.

i approve of this message. apart from that, i am truly at a loss for inspirational words

I agree. There are alot of people who do that. They really need to learn that just posting fail or pictures isn't funny. People just want to be a comedian. Like people who create "Quote ladders". What's the point?
There isn't one.

@ PwN Lone
I too remember when people were just happy to have another member in the Halo CE community. Now instead of gameplay people want graphics.

Every map i've made has more game-play then graphics, because to me what's the point of having a good looking map, that doesn't play good at all? There isn't a point. Game-play beats graphics to me any day.

I completely agree.

example: seclusion, its very pretty, but once you get over all the shiney stuff you realize how boring it is.

A better example would have been a map with low detail that is fun to play. Such as Hang'em High or Wizard.

I was going for an example of a map with bad gameplay but good graphics, but your example is good too.

Either example get's the point across.

wow it was that bad?

Pretty much every map Bungie made has to have good game-play, they spent days/weeks/months perfecting the maps to get the most game-play out of each one.

If your talking about seclusion then yes, its shiny but very very very VERY VERY VERY boring.

It started out as game-play, but they decided to make it more graphical then playable. Now it's the great looking but bad playing map we've come to know and love/hate.

In order to become successful, you need to know your audience.

If you want to become a respected mapmaker, in with the "Elite" group up at Modacity of Masterz, Snaf, and the like, you need to make good models that will impress them and thus get their download. While this will earn you fame at Modacity and thus here, most people who play Halo CE don't even go to these forums. They browse the main site, downloading maps which look fun. much as I did about two and a half years ago, and don't even bother with these forums.

I remember I had an obsession with Segwarts, before I got started with modding CE. They were horribly unbalanced, I just found their vehicle tag and saw a picture, and from there, I thought they were awesome. They looked like FUN.

They were original.

Yoyorast Island has been praised for how well it looks, but the true reason for its success is that it is a fun map to play. It doesn't have any new weapons, but the Mongooses it has as well as its extraordinary layout make it a departure from the ordinary.

Coldsnap and Hugeass. Two VERY successful maps. Why? Because they were so vehicle-oriented. There were hardly any old things at all. Everything was upgraded, and because they were, it was fun. Extinction suffers from two things: First, what I call "Little Brother Syndrome". It was too much like the other mega maps out there. It had a Scarab to make it unique, but that was about it. Second, it suffers from people becoming addicted to seeing current maps already out there and are unwilling to really try a new one. Any Extinction server I join is always full, because it is a good map, just no one makes servers for it anymore.

Blood Gulch is successful because it is much different than any other Bungie map. Other Bungie maps in Halo 1 are close-quarters to mid-range, such as Longest or Rat Race. Blood Gulch isn't like Infinity or Death Island. Blood Gulch is something different, and it being different, it being FUN is the reason for success.

The reason for there being so many BG mods is because it's a fun map. I've actually made 2 BG mods of my own, just because I thought the results were fun. Those 2 mods are actually the only maps I have released on my own, without the aid of a team. I'm just famous around here because while I know my stuff and prove it daily, I hardly ever show it off.




TL;DR:
To get to the people who criticize you both here and at Modacity and thus earn you internetz fame, you need to make things look good.

To get to the REAL audience, the people who just play, you need to make something new and original.

^ This is what I'm talking about.

I don't really care how many people say it, Coldsnap was a hell of a map. Though it was huge (and had that sniper rifle) it was balanced in terms of vehicles and base sides. I could play that maps for hours on any server with more than 10 people online. The point is, a map is like a human being - the true beauty of it comes from whats in the inside (gameplay) and not the exterior (flashy models and BSPs).

Times have changed so much.

although your forgetting that alot of people on modacity are elitist pricks who cannot grasp the concept of somebody not being good at something or doing something differently. that makes it a little difficult to get anything done

I wonder what they would say if someone posted this there?

Oh, the Irony...

You got mad at peril becuase you were telling me, "Why is it so hard to grasp forerunner?"
Seriously, go away.

You OBVIOUSLY didn't read my post completely, look at the end where I said I was like that before and hoped to change for the better.Dont tell me my post is "ironic" when you havent examined your evidence correctly.

Edited by CLS_GRUNT on Nov 11, 2008 at 03:54 PM

You just made a topic about people flaming others and then you tell someone else to go away. Rethink what you say or it might be you who should go away. I never seen someone more ignorant than you.
Edited by il Duce Primo on Nov 11, 2008 at 03:49 PM

Edited my post.
Edited by CLS_GRUNT on Nov 11, 2008 at 03:55 PM

Good man.

I consider this thread.