Which halo game do you guys think had the most challenging/balanced AI? The reasons I ask is for a rough guideline of how I should set up AI encounters in my future maps and out of curiosity. Recently I've been told by friends that the maps I make are slightly too hard because of various factors such as:

- Elite ultras being H2 style and insanely overpowered. (Yes, they do pull out energy swords after taking enough damage and survive stickies.)

- Grunts being a bit too trigger happy and throwing grenades like Olympic shot putt athletes. Also my grunt ultras tend to have 100-125 hit-points.

- Jackal snipers with beam rifles. Nuff said.

- Brutes with brute shots are too plentiful.

Please post your thoughts on how to improve this. Don't make this a 343 vs Bungie Halo thread.

Altheros B40 hunters

That depends,
For a challenge i prefer H2 elites and brutes

H1 and H4 probably had the most "fair" AI on Legendary. Legendary of course in H1, is not only accepted to be hard, but the most engaging and offers the most complex combat. In H2 this got screwed up, and IMO the franchise has never recovered.

I'd look at keeping the health and damage roughly what things were in H1, and make any new ranks be based off the multipliers and additions done in what is provided in the stock game. Players should be able to react to a situation and respond, there is a reason that the Beam Rifle is a 2sk on Legendary post H3. Relegate powerful weapons like the BS to the head of an encounter, there are plenty of other weapons the supporting brutes can use.

Halo 2 has some very good encounters in deltahalo,regret and gravemind...but for some reason the legendary ai and most of the encounters design sucks or feels uncomplete...
specially sacred icon,hight charty, outskirts and metropolis.
h3 cortana and most of the levels from haloreach-h4 has only dropship_place random ai's.
Edited by Halonimator on Sep 18, 2015 at 06:21 PM

I tend to have the grunts die rather quickly (like, 1/2 bullets, 3 at most), be easily scared, but until they fight, they are a real threat. Like, they stay sprayed out (to avoid mass carnage with few shots) and they fire full auto like there's no tomorrow. I'd love them to throw grenades too, but in HCE their animation is quite slow, and I still haven't made it quicker, even though it should be quite easy.

About elites, I think they shouldn't be so OP. They should instead be crazy fast moving\meleeing (like in Reach, where they can easily outrun you when you try to flee) and capable of working in teams to surround you and overwhelm you with plasma.

And brutes... I don't know, really. Except the big guys with the hammers, they have never been in any way a challenge; even their most challenging encounters paled in front of a good team of elite ultra. I'd love to see some interesting Brutes encounters; I think their armor should be incredibly thick, they should be almost invulnerable to melee (except the ones from their weapons, since they have blades) and, above all, they should be A LOT faster. They are giant apes, I know, and they aren't supposed to run that fast, but... come on, at least give them an effective melee! And bigger weapons. The spiker and the mauler are ok, but they look like pistols in their hands. A giant crossbow-like big gun for angry brutes would be awesome, I think.

And, please, hunters from H3 odst. They were the most challenging, I loved fighting them.

It's hard for me to say if H2 has any good encounter design, the AI is such a step back and the sandbox is so broken I can't think of a single encounter off the top of my head that I have fond memories of. That's not to say there couldn't be gems hidden away in there, but as a whole the game is pretty linear and forceful in how it wants you to deal with things.



The point of grunts is to have easy to headshot enemies, who fight like your little kid brother who sucks at the game. Easy to avoid plasma fire, grenades that aren't much of a threat, that is how they were designed. The jackals were designed to be smarter and use their charged shots.

When it comes to Brutes.. don't do something where something you have is completely ineffective. I'd try and make them different than the Elites, Reach was in the right direction with that. Mixing and matching weapons for packs is a viable option too, that's what we do with SPV3. We have the Shredder/Spiker as their weapon that can quickly deplete their health but not your shield, and the Brute Plasma Rifle as a weapon that can quickly deplete your shield but not your health.

H1 is great in that it forces you to shift gears fairly often to deal with different types of threats and has you identify which tools you have to counter those threats. Once you know what tools you have, you need to figure out how you want to use them. The great things is that pretty much everything is a viable option, if you have the skill and understanding of said tools.
Edited by Masters1337 on Sep 18, 2015 at 06:50 PM

Never agreed with that view of the grunts. They are badly-equipped and badly trained soldiers, but soldiers nonetheless; I make them play like my elder brother would REALLY play, not like them. My brother would fire plasma rifle full auto without leading until it overheats, he would fire needles carelessly hoping to hit me, and he would spam charged bolts A LOT. I've never understood properly why a grunt shouldn't overcharge his plasma pistol; if I were a grunt, I'd do it all the time. Same goes for the needler; if you were a badly trained soldier, with a needler in your hand, and a giant man covered in thick metal would chase you firing with a big scary rifle, and bullet were flying around your head with they dreadful noise of angry bugs, what would you do? Would you fire one needle at a time, carefully aiming each one to be sure to hit a target a couple of meters from you with projectiles that would lead your target anyway, or you would spray a barrage of needles out of the purest terror, hoping to save you ass?



Not really sure. In Reach they had a more interesting AI, that's for sure; still, I can't say I could think of them like something different from a pack of oversized grunts, while fighting them; they were just too easy to kill (except the insane captain), too predictable and too slow while moving and punching. I can say, however, that in H3, while having a poor AI, they had something quite valuable to give them their own personality: they used a completely new set of weapons and vehicles.

An elegant and misterios plasma rifle? A relic of a more ancient civilization? I spit on that! I'll fire burning iron spikes with this crude stick of metal vaguely resembling a gun, and impale you alive with that!

And why should I struggle to fit on a ghost? I'll take a mountain of iron, give it an engine and call it a prowler!

And plasma grenades are for grunts. I'll burn you to ashes with the bigger brother of the molotov bomb!

In short, stuff like that. Brutes really deserve more in-depht thought to give their unique gameplay experience, I'd say. Sadly, I don't precisely know what do they need.
Edited by rododoonceagain on Sep 18, 2015 at 07:28 PM

I would like to see more ape-barbarian close range brutes fights (dont like those from h3 and hr) and the h2 (still meh..but)

I'm merely telling you about what their thought process was with the grunts. What you describe isn't going to work well because all you are going to have is projectile spam, and overlap with the behavior of the jackals which makes them both less interesting to fight. The headshot is key to combat with grunts, as the higher your skill with the pistol is the more grunts you can drop before they charge at you, again before switching gears to fight another enemy, (grunt, elite, hunter).

The Brutes had some cool gear in H3 in terms of the chopper, and equipment. But their weapons were just garbage other than the brute shot. They got a worse version of the plasma rifle in the form of the spiker, and a worse version of the shotgun in the form of the mauler. Like has anyone ever been killed by the mauler? It's not like you are rushing up to Brutes for a prolonged fight at the range it works anyway, and if you are the melee dance is far more fun. Firebombs were fun for the player to use, but annoying to fight against as they gave you no chance to survive or react to them if they landed near you.

With high error, of course, since they are untrained. And projectile spam is precisely what I'd expect from a scared, untrained grunt.


I'm not sure of that. Jackals in H1 were pretty well designed, if you ask me, but I couldn't stand the grunts. They just had no reason to be there. They did nothing: no overcharge, no needle spam, few grenades (and they would even bounce on their feet with a well timed bullet), their grenades would take years to explode, they would flinch from everything, they would have crazy low health (except against melee. I can lift 66 tons of angry metal know as Scorpion without problems, but I need to punch a grunt four times before he dies). Seriously, is that supposed to be an enemy or what? I understand they are low infantry, but that's way beyond offensive. There's not even a challenge.



completely agree. But, Jesus, how I loved the brute shot and the big hammer.


That was the challenge! Never lose sight of a brute, because he could actually DO something nasty to you. That was what I loved (and hated, of course) of Halo 4 needles, or Halo Reach plasma grenades... you got to be careful, and always pay attention, or you could just explode within a moment.
Edited by rododoonceagain on Sep 18, 2015 at 07:57 PM

Old and New Mombasa were filled with memorable, marine-assisted moments.
I recall the area in which a marine hog approached the beach for the first time, attacking a ghost. Another marine at the top "got a present for ya", and proceeded to blow up the Ghost. Awesome.

All of the first Delta Halo mission was absolutely amazing. Attack the structure, get tank or hog, have ODSTs drive the other one. Have lots and lots of fun. Get to In Amber Clad area, which was again fantastic.
Of course Marty's amazing soundtrack heavily contributed to that too.

The Arbiter's exterior missions of which I forget the name, Elites vs Brutes. Had more awesome moments.

Halo 2's AI was the best Halo had, and the sandbox was amazing. A fine-tuned version of Halo 1, in which the pistol was basically upgraded to the BR. All Halos after that made the sandbox needlessly complicated, just for the sake of expanding it.

Please don't listen to Masterz when it comes to encounter design. He talks alot, but in reality his idea of a good encounter is spamming 30 brutes all over the place, and giving you a tank to attack them (seriouly, he once streamed that proudly). I would recommend listening or taking inspiration from people who have succesfully created their own balanced encounters. Look at KillaFTW, lots of the TSC:E designers, shameless shoutout to our own Lumoria and more.

Now for my own advice to the OP.




I really liked H2 elites. But I even more liked the H1 elites that could dodge/strafe/duck sideways when avoiding your fire. Both are good opponents, but don't make them overpowered on normal difficulties. An Elite Ultra should not be able to survive more than 2 stickies, since these are skill-based grenades. On Legendary you could of course up the damage limit.


Grunts are essentially just canon fodder, meant to dwindle down your ammo supply or overwhelm you in large numbers. Throwing tons of grenades is a bit ridiculous though. Halo 1 and 2 both had the default grunts nailed imo.


Nothing wrong with these guys at all. Just don't give them insta-kill (even on Legendary, a mistake H2 did make). Use them sparingly to surprise the player and/or keep him on edge.


A brute-shot is a semi power weapon. You want your brute packs to mainly wield stuff like red plasma rifles, and use the brute shot guys more sparingly. This applies more generally to encounter design I reckon. You want to think about "standard squad formations and composition". Think about fun, standard squads you can throw at the player. Use these as a base to design your encounters. Then depending on your BSPs, tweak those to suit the area. Occasionally mix it up with surprising creative encounters.


I'll just say that Halo 1 and 2 had, for me, the most fun and memorable encounters. Halo 3 was good too. I didn't enjoy most of the following games though.
Edited by DaLode on Sep 19, 2015 at 04:14 AM

Cortana is very memorable.

Though it is not a very good memory.

I agree with Lodeman (as you'd guess, we share similar views), although I slightly disagree as I think Halo 2's Legendary AI was not quite as fair as Halo 1 or 3. Each of them were a challenge but Halo 2 on Legendary is just very, VERY, difficult. That being said Halo 1 and 2 has some of the best encounters of the game, followed by Halo 3 as well with a lot of memorable moments there too (The Ark and The Covenant come immediately to mind).

Personally I recommend making your levels intended for normal first. Balance it out, make it fun and enjoyable. Not super difficult but challenging in certain areas as well. Then go back and fine tune the Legendary experience.

I have listened to you guys and have made the following changes (there are a lot):

Elites:
+ Ultras are still powerful, but are less common on lower difficulties.
+ Specops can engage active camouflage when they lose shielding.
+ NEW IDEA - Grunts lead by elites will be marginally more accurate and braver.

Brutes:
+ Now use firebomb grenades to render them a larger threat in tight areas.
+ Have strong armour but no shields, making the noob combo useless.
+ Are very aggressive and try to get as close as possible.
+ Some will be scripted to berserk when they lose pack members.
+ Are not as accurate as elites or jackals, but have a faster firing rate.
+ Have more health than elites, so lets say an elite has 100 health, a brute will have 150.
+ Are reckless, don't use defensive manoeuvres and have a low grenade evade chance.
+ NEW IDEA - Grunts lead by brutes are marginally more aggressive and may go kamikaze instead of panicking.

Jackals:
+ Will not flee unless their leader dies or they take heavy damage.
+ Aren't very aggressive and use defensive positions.
+ Utilize overcharge on plasma pistols.
+ Some snipers drop their beam rifles and pull out a plasma pistol if you are too close.

Grunts:
+ Specops, ultras and deacons can use secondary fire/overcharge.
+ Specops utilize camouflage when fleeing.
+ Ultras and deacons sometimes use exotic weaponry such as maulers or plasma rifles.
+ Fuel rod guns are only used by heavies or specop grunts, and never more than 2 in a squad.
+ They will sometimes drop two-handed weapons when fleeing.
+ Deacons are the new highest grunt rank. They will usually be part of a high ranking brute or elite's bodyguard and accompanied by grunt specops, heavies or ultras.

Hunters:
+ Do not flinch from anything, literally. Most ping animations are removed because they were ridiculous.
+ H3 ODST gold hunters are back in the game.

Drones:
+ Only have 3 ranks, minor, major and hive leader.
+ ODST style, with hive leaders having shielding and good weaponry.
+ The only real difference between ranks is health and accuracy.

I'll see how this rough guideline goes. I was mostly determined to make brutes and grunts more diverse, but brutes might end up being too difficult.

What armour colour should the grunt deacon and brute ranks be?
Edited by Tom638 on Sep 19, 2015 at 07:13 AM

How the... how would you achieve that?


I'd give way more than 150 (180 to a minor, 250 to a major), but I like everything


why not?


I'd go for a dull grey for a brute minor, copper-like color for major and, for the captain, the same red used for stock elites major.

About deacons... pretty much every color was already picked. Yellow for minors, red for majors, green for gunners, black for specops, white for ultra... I'd go for a bright pink, which fits pretty wel the covenant style. My gun turret is of this color, and it looks rather fine.

Halo 1 had best AI. Halo 2 was a crap shoot and Halo 3 was just too easy at times. Let's forget about Reach and I dont even remember Halo 4 beyond the actual story.

what's wrong with Reach AI? Sure, there were balancing issues (marines were too weak, grunts had way too many HP and stuff), but the AI in itself wasn't bad at all.

I found Halo Reach Elites to be entirely "not fun", for example.
In Halo 1 they were a challenge, but they ultimately weren't terribly difficult to take out.
In Reach, they ran around like tap dancers on steroids. Making it harder to line up your shots/stickies. Yes, it was more of a challenge that way. But it was alot less fun. To me at least.

What was so wrong with reach AI? Also i wouldn't really rate Halo 1's AI higher than Halo 2's, i mean, they don't even recognize scenery as cover or search your last position like in Halo 2. They would just stare at your last position hoping you'll come out.



I totally agree that elites were annoying in Halo Reach but their actual AI was definitely superior. They should have been slowed down a lot though. I think Halo 2's elites were the most fun to fight, especially with the rank diversity. I was disappointed that there was barely any tactical differences between ranks in halo reach.
Edited by Tom638 on Sep 19, 2015 at 11:08 AM

bumping for screenshots

well i don't have anything great right now, but i have a screeny of the (wip) deacon.

Sorry for the low quality - it's in sapien.

That's just a prototype - the colour and backpack may change.
Ik that the second part of the backpack isn't the right colour - this was the first screenshot of the first in-game deacon.

I've decided to replace the cylinder tank with the shellback one. Here's the screeny


Shellback version

Rear view. Halo 3 needler = best needler.
I definitely think the shellback looks better

Wow this thread got off topic fast!
Okay to make it a bit more relevant:

Grunt Deacon:

+ Sometimes uses firebomb grenades rather than plasmas.
+ Makes very few tactical errors.
+ Counts as an elite for morale purposes - grunts will flee when it dies and regroup when it is near.
+ Is probably the rarest enemy in my campaign project.
+ Helmet takes multiple shots to destroy and is tougher than a standard ultra's.
+ Can use plasma pistols, needlers, maulers, elite and brute plasma rifles and purifiers.
+ Will very rarely be seen in direct command of a covenant lance (but still subourdinate to elite minors.) Why? Because it's a grunt.
Edited by Tom638 on Sep 19, 2015 at 04:27 PM

I definitely like this purple; it fits pretty well the covenant style, and looks good with the needler.
For the backpack, I'd just go for the one of the grunt ultra/gunner.
And I'd add some misterious (and glowy) forerunner glyph here and there, because of reasons. And, if you could copy the armor from the arm to the leg to give it a bit more protection, that wouldn't hurt, I think.

I could certainly try the glyph stuff, but it would look god-awful because I can't really model and haven't delved into bitmaps. I definitely won't be able to make the leg armour look good.

I don't really want to go for the cylindrical pack because I want it to stand out from regular ultras if possible. Regardless i think i'm probably going to stick with the purple helmet and chest and secondary colour methane pack layout.

There's really no need to toy with the model for that. Just edit the bitmap with some good sense and it will look fine; I made a lot of illumination bitmaps by myself (last one is the one I used in the space phantom)


I may give it a quick shot to see if it does look good at least.


The deacon being distinguished only by the color, IMHO, isn't the best choice, but here is a matter of tastes.

If i could model well, i would change it. But the whole idea of the two backpacks, dual colour scheme thing was for them not to look like recoloured ultras whilst making them look threatening. This is also going off-topic, but i guess it's still partially related to the original idea.

Also, has anyone ever thought of giving jackals more than 3 ranks? I just thought that i haven't seen anyone on hce go beyond the minor-major-sniper ranks. If i remotely cared about jackals and stopped thinking of them as inferior grunts i would give it a try.

Like skirmishers...?

I always liked that in H4 the jackals could use concussion rifles with 2 hands. I wish we saw more of that. I'd do it in SPV3, but we already have the brute shot.

I tried that it one of my testing maps for ce, but they simply aren't threatening enough without headshot protection or grenades.

Also, I never thought it was a good idea to give a grunt or jackal any two-handed weapon save for the fuel rod gun, it just doesn't look or play as good IMO.

No, like actual jackals. Skirmishers behave in a completely different way to jackals and have different weaknesses, so i don't like to think of them as 'jackal' ranks. Also, the elites in reach were fast enough, the skirmishers didn't really need to be there at all.
Edited by Tom638 on Sep 20, 2015 at 05:45 AM

I'd take the jackals using the concussion rifle and just amp up their accuracy so they are things the player has to quickly peek out and shoot before proceeding.

The fun thing about the Concussion Rifle and Brute Shot is being able to take an enemy out who has them quickly. When fighting Brutes it's possible... when fighting Elites just a huge pain as they don't react to anything being shot at them until their shield is down.