Magic open sauce powder. It's like nanotechnology!

And nanotechnology = yum yum :D

Open sauce can not change the internal structure of the game engine to transmit or accept and use additional data and more importantly in this case it cannot modify the network protocol that transmits and receives data. Open Sauce is a memory hack and does not change the internals it only exposes some of the data. Open Sauce while a clever idea is severely limited in what it can do and totally dependant on the version of the game engine.

You cannot sync AI across a network connection in the Halo Custom Edition game. This is a simple concept once you know how the game works.

this is a map that synchs too: http://hce.halomaps.org/index.cfm?fid=2961

They don't sync, they just stand still.

Now Dennis, I don't believe that you understand Open Sauce or rather what it is entirely. Being a developer myself I would like to point out some things that are incorrect in your statement.



That is incorrect. In fact, in the next Open Sauce Update, I believe there are certain upgrades to the netcode that are going to be utilized. One of which I believe are the state of Doors. In fact, there is already a Networking section of Open Sauce that will be utilized in the near future.



Open Sauce does not expose anything unless specifically told to do so. One of those things it exposes are globals so people can create their own Engine Globals (those who have heard me talk about OS to them on xfire or AIM refer to them as Super Globals) and Engine/Scripting Functions.

If anything Open Sauce Replaces or modifies existing game code.

In fact, Open Sauce runs inside of Halo so there's no difference between Halo and Open Sauce code to the Processor.

-Edit-
Also, version compliance isn't really an issue if it ever gets upgraded to 1.09 because unless something destroys halo's reliability (like an internet explorer update lol) there probably won't be another tbqh.

-/edit-



Anything is possible with Open Sauce, as long as it's within the developer's capabilities, which is the real question. Can the person making the extension feasibly make Ai sync on their own? the answer is not without a lot of know-how, time, and work. Thus, anyone who could do it, is outside of the Halo CE community and would have to have extreme knowledge in reversing & writing netcode and reversing the structure of Ai, how it makes decisions, all that jazz.


Open Sauce is not a hack. Due to the complexity of the sdk and researched addresses, it is better defined as an external modification or external mod.

In the end, the limits of OS are the programmer's capabilities. Which with the number of programmers still active in Halo, that's not much. Too bad so few scripters ever actually move on to programming. :|
Edited by Dwood on Apr 8, 2010 at 05:53 PM

Told you nothing is impossible...All we need is some help from the family to get things working.

Ugh. Doompig, why did you post this so early? I understand it was interesting and all, but it's not even presentable right now. let alone working over halfway.

For those of you wondering what the method behind this is, click this link:

http://rework3d.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=66956

(Tricks the engine into thinking the AI are vehicles. Their positions sync, however their aim vector will not. This is according to Adolif.)

I take no credit for the method behind it, only the attempt. And I have to say that I wasn't expecting him to post this. (My current suspicion is that the clientside bipeds get in the way of the syncing working right; there are still invisible AI running around that the client cannot see, but can kill, which I think is due to the fact that the game won't let the AI run through the clientside bipeds that the clients see. Some AI will sync, but eventually they break the sync attempting to run through the client bipeds.)

I have a second method beside this one in mind, if it works I'll release the method later. Can't be certain.

Additionally, I don't want credit for the method. That's Adolif's bit there. I'm just testing it and finding a way to ditch the clientside bipeds as well.

Good concept. I think it was already thought of before though.

May have been, however I was far, far from ready for serious testing of Syncing with this. And Adolif's post is like, 2 years old. I'm surprised nobody tried it before.

They have, and everyone has failed.

Open Sauce relies entirely on memory hacking therefore it is completely, proven and documented version specific and subject to changes in memory addresses due to updates. Memory hacking can never be called an external mod it is what it is: a memory hack.

The effectiveness of open sauce as a possible addition to the game is so severely limited by its structure, the need to hack memory and the need to distribute often competing dlls that any developer would know that is a clever, indeed a very clever, exercise in reverse engineering but not a viable development platform.

I am not saying people should stop playing with open sauce and discard it, although I am sure that is what people think I am saying. All I am saying is that due to the very real limitations, such as breath of the install base the various versions people run using the version changer the fact that DEP routines in newer OS’s like Vista, W7 and 2008 often flag the dlls as offenders, the fact that everyone must be using the same dll of the same version, that there is no way to determine what dll each client is using or a way to effectively distribute them, that any possible “enhancement” will be limited in scope. What I am saying is that Open sauce is not really going to change the game in any meaningful way because of all the limitations imposed on it. People who think it will have a very narrow viewpoint and don’t see the larger picture, a fault of many beginning developers.

Open sauce is clever I have always said that, but it is at its basis a memory hack with all the baggage that implies.

At this rate arguing about the name really doesn't matter. :P



I'm sorry but I don't think I entirely understand what you're saying here. If what I'm reading you're saying that it's limited by the need to distribute the competing dlls is what makes it non-viable as a development platform?

Given I understand entirely what you're saying, I would like to minimize that, if you're willing to hear me out in testing a proposal because (I don't mean this in any offending way whatsoever) but you're not exactly helping us make Open Sauce better/helping us get more people to test the .dll as well as make sure everyone can run the thing.



I have never had an issue with those DEP routines, and no one else that I know of has either, in the case of Open Sauce. If you have, or someone you know has, I sincerely request you give us more data on the problem so we can work on solving it, because that would be a serious problem. In fact, Zteam, Ghost, and all the oldies and many noobs who have tried, have managed to use Open Sauce without fail once they posted their problems because the problems were made known.



Sure there may be no way for each client to tell what .dll each person is using but if you hear me out on the below proposal that wouldn't be a problem of the distributor but the user if there ever is a problem in the map that makes it compliant to only one version of Open Sauce. Each .dll is extremely compatible with the others. Granted, there's only 3 .dlls to speak of but still, each one that's been released so far is compatible with the other when it comes to networking and mapping. In fact, OS uses Halo's networking to send its own packets. They're all signed and all that jazz.

Any map that references a tag that's in FireScythe's PostProcessing that's compiled normally would run just fine because the Project Yellow tags won't be loaded. Any map that's compiled with the PP tags compiled with the -ex command still needs an Open Sauce .dll HOWEVER it still won't need a specific .dll

The only ONLY problem with different .dlls would be the scripts. Which, are solved by making the mapper provide a .dll that they know works with the map on whatever version of Halo they say it does. If it doesn't then they need to fix it.



It honestly doesn't matter if you say it's clever or not if you aren't giving the people who make things inside OS some kind of requirements to meet so we can get some way for others to test and use what we (those who use Open Sauce) make in it over the Halo Maps file system.

You've said in the past, people who've posted their OS-Enabled maps have always failed to meet requirements. What are they? Can we not work out some way for others browsing the HaloMaps file server to get the maps through your site?

I've been mulling our last conversation on OS over and I think it'd be reasonable to at least request an Open Sauce section on the FileServer, much like how CMT has its own Section where on that section, people can upload their own OS-Enabled maps Requiring, in the Readme, to post the compatible version of Halo, have an equivalent non-OS map or have a .dll come with the OS-version of the map.

Your distribution problem is solved/minimized. The only argument you can use really is the version problem, and that's something that's not going to go away, however most people don't even use 1.09 anyways. As you stated, they mostly just use Version Changer.

And to solve the version problem, I propose posting on/in theoretical Open Sauce section of Halo Maps, the required Halo Custom Edition 1.08 Strings .dll, hcededi, and hce.exe with a notice that if Open Sauce doesn't run, to go to a thread or page on Troubleshooting OS. All data and text of which, I would gladly provide.

In the end, you can either say yes or no to my idea of a separate Open Sauce section, my proposal is meant to minimize any problems with OS. If you decide no then that's your decision, and I've provided every way I can to minimize any problems with the .dll to you.

Edit: Korn wrote the base Open Sauce sdk lol.
Edited by Dwood on Apr 8, 2010 at 07:59 PM

The method changes nothing about the tag's data. All it is is a swap of the tag type in HHT from 'bipd' to 'vehi'. It's just an identifier. It changes nothing about the actual data that makes up the biped. It's still a biped. In order for the netcode to treat something like a vehicle, it must actually be a vehicle.

And even then, you won't get very far, since there's no way you're going to get a vehicle to look and function like a biped, particularly with AI.



The 'invisible AI' are the actual server side AI which aren't syncing. The client side bipeds that sit there unarmed are the result of the tiny fraction of things that usually sync with bipeds: health and existence. Nothing more.

The ones that clients actually see working properly are nothing but completely independent local instances of AI that spawned when the player joined the game. They don't exist on server side so their actions basically don't count.

You can warp right through them and their shots have no effect on you. These guys are completely unsynced in every way, and if you think that some of them are syncing it's either a complete coincidence or bad judgment.

What I'm saying is that nothing is 'getting in the way of the syncing'. There is no syncing. The changes that were made had no effect. If you grab any other AI map, you'll see the same 3 things on client side: dummy bipeds representing server side AI bipeds, local client side independent AI, and server side 'invisible' AI actually hurting you.

No. It is because it relies on memory hacking at its core.

Now you have. The last OS dll supplied with a map that I tested last year crashed HaloCe and engaged the DEP on a X64 vista machine. It just crashed Halo on XP. I deleted it.
We only support the latest version of HCE 1.09 and test on XP and Vista.
The version changer compounds the distribution problem exponentially: That abomination helps the hackers and prevents people from maintaining proper version control, but that is another discussion altogether.
I know and we had this same discussion both privately and publicly. He is a clever guy and saw the problems.


And yes Vern it takes alot of words to discuss complex issues and properly convey ideas.

Edited by Dennis on Apr 8, 2010 at 11:19 PM

As does nearly every other 3rd party application that is uploaded to halomaps.



What if a (theoretical) map didn't require OS to load?



We only support the latest version of HCE 1.09 and test on XP and Vista.

This all brings to mind the proverbial "beating a dead horse"...

Ok, try this map "Truth and Recon"...no duplicate bipeds are found when multiple players join. The map doesn't sync exactly, but AI are placed after players have joined the game, so it plays very well.

http://hce.halomaps.org/index.cfm?fid=2961

If a map passes the play test it gets posted.
Because the function of the website is an archive and we will host any map and valid utilities that work with the version of Halo CE that is current when the map was submitted. (I realy should put warnings on non-functioning apps but have been too busy to undertake that task)

We don't host most apps submitted mainly because they contain virus signatures that our antivirus quarantines and I never see them. I know most are due to innocuous key stroke intercepts but there is no way I can or will disable it. As a matter of fact I am contractually bound to be sure that it is most current.

Don't mistake what I am saying I am not against OS and I am not trying to prevent it from succeeding. It is just that the practical limitations of it are overlooked by people who seem to think it will make wishes come true (I am not referring to you). The bottom line is that we will host any map that passes the play test and if a supplied DLL works then that too. So far none have.

adolif orignaly posted on halomods. the app that made that method sync all the way.... but the everyone in the server had to have it :/ wish I would of saved the app

Thanks for the discussion and clarifications Dennis. only two questions left now. If the map works but the .dll doesnt how about you keep the .dll in it and add a disclaimer? Also, in the future if you get any .dlls of os that supposedly support 1.09 and they dont work would you mind notifying me or modacity of the errors?
Edited by Dwood on Apr 9, 2010 at 10:08 AM

I wish Dennis had posted "tldr;" in response.

This I will have to think about. If a map works the map will get posted. If there is no way for me to test the DLL I am right now inclined to not publish it. One of the reasons is that experience has shown me that user created content is not always tested before being submitted. The number of submitted maps that fail with an exception is quite large several each week.
I assume that it currently doesn't support 1.09 which would explain why none of the few have failed to work.


I always read all of the text in an intelligent well thought out conversation.

Edited by Dennis on Apr 9, 2010 at 02:13 PM

As for that, if a team is willing to have a .dll that comes with Open Sauce I can pretty well tell you that they tested it was working before they uploaded it because many of them have a programmer on board, I doubt a programmer would let a bad .dll get posted-

I assume that it currently doesn't support 1.09 which would explain why none of the few have failed to work.

Oh Snap Flame Wars! Dwood Vs Dennis this is going to good. Btw it is impossible without extranal program with it.

Our discussion is anything but a flame wars and could possibly have an effect on the mods as well as the quality thereof that are produced in the future, and uploaded on halomaps. Please do not talk like that, I resent that when people talk to Dennis like we're all human beings they freak out.

And please rephrase your question I do not understand what you're saying.

but it wasn't a question..

It was also completely un-understandable.

.... nevermind.

AI could sync if you could make the AI act normal. build plots for them and scripted areas. but AI are Random and cant sync.

what we need is the Source. and dear god ive been trying my hardest forever to get it too. but i can never get ahold of M$.

Once again, try this map "Truth and Recon"...no duplicate bipeds are found when multiple players join. The map doesn't sync exactly, but AI are placed after players have joined the game, so it plays very well. This does exactly what you described.

http://hce.halomaps.org/index.cfm?fid=2961

This is as close as anyone will ever get...
Edited by Mysterion on Apr 12, 2010 at 08:08 PM