I know it. AI don't sync. It doesn't happen.

But i have a friend who does not believe me.

The first example:

[21:45] Benny Jay: well when you stop being afk, i have made a map we can use. its got vehicles, but i can't get the @#$% weapons to spawn right, so we are just gonna have to kill bipeds and steal their weapons. also, i have put some ais in the map that we can *test* on :P
[21:46] FoxtrotZero: no AIs. They don't sync
[21:46] Benny Jay: ...what
[21:47] FoxtrotZero: AI does not sync online, genius
[21:47] Benny Jay: yes they do. ive played maps with ai in multiplayer servers
[21:47] Benny Jay: no problems
[21:48] FoxtrotZero: they don't. its proven. don't be ignorant. the halo game engine doesn't support it. its not possible. you thought it was synced, but it IS NOT POSSIBLE. sorry to be bursting your bubble
[21:49] Benny Jay: ok then explain what the @#$% you mean. i played a game with ais 2 days ago and it had ais in it. there were about 8 ppl in it and we played with no problems at all
[21:49] FoxtrotZero: oh my god. okay, just a moment
[21:49] Benny Jay: dude you have no idea what ur talking about
[21:50] FoxtrotZero: yes i do.
[21:50] Benny Jay: then prove it
[21:50] FoxtrotZero: don't tell me i am wrong without proof. i am getting my proof
[21:50] Benny Jay: i know I have played games with ai that didn't have problems
[21:50] FoxtrotZero: no you havent
[21:50] FoxtrotZero: it is not possible
[21:50] Benny Jay: i have proof! ive played games with ai in them
[21:50] Benny Jay: yes i have
[21:50] Benny Jay: then try my map. if it fails, i will believe you and give you a million dollars


Second example:

[23:14] Benny Jay: the weapons are on the map
[23:14] Benny Jay: thats what matters
[23:14] Benny Jay: and so is the ai
[23:14] Benny Jay: :P
[23:15] FoxtrotZero: bipeds, you mean
[23:15] Benny Jay: no
[23:15] Benny Jay: ai
[23:15] Benny Jay: i know what the @#$% i mean
[23:15] FoxtrotZero: i told you ai won't spawn
[23:15] FoxtrotZero: i mean sync
[23:15] Benny Jay: they are @#$%ing shooting at me! they are ai!
[23:17] FoxtrotZero: i know they are. because you are the host. you have the true AI. but that doesn't carry over. i get my own "Dead" copies on my machine. While your invisible AI run around shooting me, while shooting you visibly on your PC. it will not sync. It doesn't carry over between PCs, except on LANs. Tha is PCs on the same network. Through the internet, like you and me, it wil not work. Its been proven. Ask the creators yourselves. Rip apart the game engine. It can't be done. The game engine does not support it.
[23:19] Benny Jay: ok, just because you sound like you know that the @#$% you are talking about, doesn't mean you do. I know what im talking about. i joined an internet game a fought AIS! i saw them, they saw me, bang bang bang, and of story.
[23:20] Benny Jay: end of story*
[23:20] FoxtrotZero: Really. because the entire Halomaps ORg Community, the makers of the game, me, and EVERYBODY ELSE are dead set against you. i am going to ask people. and by tomorrow i will have proof. then you can argue with them. but i am done talking to you about this @#$%.
[23:22] Benny Jay: you can't disprove that i joined a game with ais, i saw them, killed them, they respawned, end of story. thats what i saw, and i refuse to believe you.
[23:22] FoxtrotZero: i told you. i am done talking about it

Those are the entire transcripts of a conversation - the sections mentioning it.

He was making a map to test some weapons that he made, and he put AI to test it on. I argued, saying AI don't sync. Then we get this problem.

I would like you guys to say that it won't work, because it won't, and tell him why it won't work. Then i can refer him here. AI don't sync. Its proven.

Wow. This guy is an idiot.

First of all, his weapons did not spawn because he probably spawned them as "weapons" rather than item_collections via the netgame object placement tool in Sapien. So the only way they would spawn is if they were a campaign map.

Second of all, you are right. AI does NOT sync over online or LAN, nor will it ever will unless some genius comes up with a script that is sooo complicated that no one can replicate. My thought is that Bungie was like "Hmm...let's do what we did with Halo for the Xbox and leave Co-Op to the same system!" and another guy would be like, "Well, only one person can play on one PC.", and the first guy was like, "Okay, then let's take Co-op out! That means we don't even need to sync AI in any way, shape or form because all we have to do is single player AI, and multiplayer gameplay against humans only!" And some time later (BTW, not to go off-topic, but I just LOVE all the threads at Halomods.com [Which is shut down now] stating that HEK [Halo Editing Kit] was a myth... LOL) HEK came out, and Bungie didn't think people would have the patience to try ALL the functions of Sapien, and figure out how to spawn AI.

So they believed that synching AI was redundant. Benny Jay, or what the hell ever his name is, is an idiot. Quote me. I want him to hear me and then come flame me like all the kids I trash. :]]

Love,
Evil5partan

EDIT: If you want me to prove this, I can!
Edited by Evil 5partan on Nov 9, 2008 at 03:11 AM

I am not sure.

Evil Spartan, I won't just quote you. I will direct him to this webpage. He can read your words.

But i know he is ignorant, and won't believe you. you are going to have to prove it, so if you would, please do.

As for the weapons not spawning, the vehicles didn't either.

We were going to test some weapons he made, on a map he made. The map only had the necesarry stuff for a slayer game, no flag stands or anything.

We put in several vehicles, 4 were custom, and his weapons. Neither spawned, so he said we could put Bipeds in to kill and just take the weapons. Which i thought would be an okay idea.

Then he goes and says he will also add AI to test the weapons on, and i say no, they won't sync. and we get into an arguement.

Later, in a section not posted, i say; oh, i think i know the problem, you confused Bipeds with AI. So he says he knows what hes talking about and we agree on what AI and Bipeds are. then i say along the lines of "well you must have just used the wrong word". we get into quarrel that soon ends.

He, along the line, has map troubles, finding by the end that the vehicles will not spawn either. Except the Warthog and Scorpion. I suggest that the tags werent compiled in the map.

So somehow around that time we get into the second fight about AI.

Afterwards, i am annoyed. Just done with him. He sends a few messages saying he did some cheat_all_vehicles command, and the vehicles spawned. I am not replying, and after this, i log out. I can understand my own annoyance, because my time it was about 11 PM (those are my logs, so they read about 23:00 - 11 PM)

Well i met him because, even through i can't do anything, i made a group to organize together a smaller group of modders (anyone is welcome) where people can more openly share information and whatnot, yet less openly to prevent against fraud (while Halomaps is a great resource, you cannot blast out information where it is more likely that it will get stolen.). And he wanted to join.

I don't know if a guy who refuses the reality of a simple, and widely accepted, fact like AI not syncing, can be a part of that group.

The more people who post, the more evidince there is. I want to really prove him wrong, as we all know he is.
Edited by FoxtrotZero on Nov 9, 2008 at 02:23 PM

Vehicles won't spawn unless you check the "slayer allowed" and all the other boxes except for the unused one. Also, make sure that the vehicles are part of the globals.globals tag. If not, there's a tutorial on this website on how to script the vehicles in.

You will get a million dollars. Trust me.

I'll give him proof:



^ This is the server-side instance of the game, taken from a direct first-person view of the host. I'm hosting a LAN server from one of my computers. There is only one other player in this LAN game, and it is the other computer in my house.



^ This is a client-side instance of the game, from the other computer joined to the LAN server, also taken from a direct first-person view of the host at about the same time as the other screenshot.

Notice how they're all in different positions and aren't even holding a weapon on the client-side. The AI that your friend keeps saying "he sees" are the ones that are local to the client side only, meaning nobody else sees your AI except you. These AI function properly, but don't even exist in anyone else's screen. The bipeds that are sitting still with no weapons are actually the server-side ones, except their position, what they're doing, etc. is not synced at all, and it's obvious here.

I think this sums it up nicely.

Edit: I just noticed that you said AI syncs on LAN servers but not over the internet. Well, here's proof that it doesn't sync anywhere, since I did this on a LAN.
Edited by Me KS on Nov 9, 2008 at 05:18 PM

Yes i did say that. and it was a mistake.

As for vehicles, i know he put them in his globals.

Well, thats proof. I don't know if he will accept it, but thats proof. anyone else want to contribute?

I think there was already a post on this before... I think this is wut it said: Since there are two machines both running AI, and lets say on one computer a elite dives for cover. On the second, the same elite may not dive, and instead get killed. That creates a "tear" in the connection, and the elite that dived would still be alive and well (until you kill him) while the other is dead. Then, the guy that isn't the host would be taking damage from what appears to be an invisible character, and would die. Even if there wasn't lag, I don't think anyone would stand still long enough to stay in that server.

PS: Can I have a share of the million dollars?

Did he check his "slayer allowed" and "ctf allowed" and whatnot?

If he said he would give you a million dollars via xfire, would it be posible to get the Police to track him down and get him to pay you?

Lol ya. Do some smart things with that money and you will be a billionaire.

But seriously, could you?

if he GAVE me a million dollars, you would probally all recieve at least fifty grand each.

i am not going to sue him for it, though. Besides, it wasn't said in a legal document, so i don't think i can.

EDIT:

i talked to him today. Here is what he had to say;

[17:00] Benny Jay: what happened to you the other day
[17:00] FoxtrotZero: sorry
[17:00] FoxtrotZero: i got kind of pissed off : P
[17:00] FoxtrotZero: i have to admit, though
[17:00] FoxtrotZero: it was 11:30 PM my time
[17:00] FoxtrotZero: hold that thought
[17:01] FoxtrotZero: what grade are you in?
[17:01] Benny Jay: i wasn't trying to piss you off. i just knew i played a game with ai and i could see and kill them and they could kill me.
[17:01] Benny Jay: 11th
[17:01] FoxtrotZero: oh
[17:01] FoxtrotZero: higher than me
[17:01] FoxtrotZero: and you do alot of typing projects and the like?
[17:01] Benny Jay: yea
[17:01] FoxtrotZero: well so do i
[17:02] FoxtrotZero: and do you have the programs necesary to do this stuff on your own computer?
[17:02] Benny Jay: yes, but i don't usually have homework
[17:02] Benny Jay: i usually do all my stuff at school
[17:02] FoxtrotZero: hmm
[17:02] Benny Jay: my school doesn't usually give out homework
[17:03] FoxtrotZero: well if you need it, i found a full, free, complete office type program sute
[17:03] FoxtrotZero: @#$% you are lucky!
[17:03] Benny Jay: anyway did you download the file
[17:03] FoxtrotZero: yea. took forever. hold on a moment
[17:04] Benny Jay: have you played it yet
[17:04] FoxtrotZero: no, i haven't been on halo over the amount of time
[17:04] Benny Jay: well ill make a server
[17:04] FoxtrotZero: remember i said i would ask people? and you could argue with them?
[17:04] Benny Jay: join me
[17:04] Benny Jay: yea
[17:04] FoxtrotZero: no, i'm busy
[17:04] Benny Jay: what about the arguers
[17:05] FoxtrotZero: well i made a post on Halomaps.org. several people replied. I may have said some half brained and insulting things in this webpage. i must admit, i was kind of ticked. but it proves my case, and may also help you with why the Vehicles and Weapons won't spawn (as i mentioned this too).
[17:06] FoxtrotZero: would you please view this webpage: http://forum.halomaps.org/index.cfm%3Fpage=topic&topicID=21911
[17:07] Benny Jay: ...
[17:08] FoxtrotZero: have you read the entire thing? my point stands there. and i don't want to talk with you on the matter until you have read what is said there.
[17:08] Benny Jay: im leaving ur clan. if your not a committee working together to make maps and mods, then I have no interest in being in it. and btw, i did use item collections on the weapons. #@$% you.
[17:09] FoxtrotZero: fine then. that is your decision. don't expect to get back in.
[17:09] FoxtrotZero: anything else you want to say to me before i leave?
[17:09] Benny Jay: no. remove me from your clan.
[17:09] <This user is now offline>

He is no longer on my friends list, and what might have been a good addition is about to be gone. I tried to be diplomatic. I tried to prove a point i believed in that was backed by all of you. It didn't work. Still, i thank all of you. You helped. And i owe you for that.

But i don't owe you all fifty grand...
Edited by FoxtrotZero on Nov 10, 2008 at 08:13 PM

that's sad... some people never realize that they are wrong.

Sad face.

sorry. if i had a spare fifty grand lying around that i could give to you guys, i would.

Unfortunatly you are wrong in one respect there, AI do not sync over LAN either, it's a shame.
The only attempt at making AI sync I have seen that may work one day is making them 'vehicles' and getting them to sync by the fact that vehicle positions do sync. So far though I don't think pepole have succeded in making that work.

Well you are right, it is common knowledge that AI dont sync. But e3po might have a good therory on how to make them sync.

what happens if you and the person you're playing with is on the same network and start at the same time?

It works for about 2-3 minits, laggs alot, then it all goes to hell.

AI works for me some times I know a way for them to sync but its 50 50.

Have your friends join then restart the map completely like from new game and new game type
that's how they sync for me

But it only works 50 50 percent of the time

Then it doesn't work.

it works, but its a sketchy unreliable method.

No. There is absolutely no method possible within the game itself to make AI sync. So, correction: it only works 0 percent of the time.

Fine thats what you think but ai sync for me 50 50 cause I got a BAD ASS CP THAT WAS HAND MADE BY GIGABYTE IN ROSARITO MEXICO SO HA

oh and happy thanks giving every one and a happy wart wart wart to all
Edited by xXKrenof EVILXx on Nov 27, 2008 at 06:47 PM

You could have a NASA supercomputer and the chance of it syncing would still be at 0%.

I don't think that they will let you play Halo on a NASA computer. Either way, the only way AI would sync is if they didn't think on their own, but ran scripted animations and at the same time for everyone on the server. That's more like a modified biped though...

I think Gearbox made it...

Nothing much... People yell at you and cry and commit suicide over their disappointment that their most favorite game was delayed to add extra features that probably wouldn't have been added anyway because Halo Custom Edition was not expected to come out yet and they weren't going to add a new gametype into multiplayer using AI or completely re-create the campaign for multiplayer.

Oh and people might get fired

End Result: Halo 2. Thats what you get when you miss deadlines.

Yes, Gearbox played a large part in making Halo PC and almost all of the work in manufacturing a Halo: Custom Edition that home PC users could make. Remember this was with some of the technology we don't currently have, things werent quite as advanced : (

The goal was not for these things. They had to fit in the campaign, online multiplayer, and the stuff we do have, to fit on ONE disc to be downloaded with no internet necesarry.

CE was just this, with the campaign ripped out, and the ability to read the new type of .MAP files that were created by the HEK tools (which couldn't be the same they had, they had to be more compact, and user friendlyness was thrown out the window).

Halo Custom Edition is not offically supported by anyone but the community, and i don't know if bungie ever supported it ofically. But because the build machine was not locked up, we still get the occasional patch becase someone still care about this 1,000 or so player fanbase.

First off: AI will not sync in on-line multiplayer games because there is no facility (netcode) nor internal code to transmit or use their position or status from the server to the client. AI run on the client machine ONLY. If they look like they are syncing it is only becasue they are following the same path. They are not actually syncing since they will run at different rates on each client depending on the Processor speed and will not respond to actions from other clients.
Actually syncing AI was not in the design criteria set by Microsoft. Gearbox had no say in that decision and in any case it would not have been possible at the time becasue the spec called for a server-side protocol and also to run within the 56K bandwidth limit of dial-up modems. The amount of bandwidth required to transmit satus and position for each AI would have over extended the bandwidth limitations. And before you complain about those limitations, at the time (2003-2004) cable/DSL broadband penetration was less than 10% of internet users. It was a valid requirement for the time.
You usually lose money.

Like i said, back around then they didn't have as advanced technology. alot happens in 5 years.

Thanks Dennis. And thanks everyone else. This is a shining example of ignorance against a true and widely accepted fact backed with pure clear evidence. Unfortunatlety, it is too late for him and i intend on not having any more contact with this "benny jay".

Nonetheless, this is a good example and if the topic should ever occur again (as it occasionally does) we can direct to here.

Thank you again.