Like most of them care for honor or the people wanting it care for that either.

I used to believe in not protecting my maps, then I saw what happened when a friend of mine (newbie modder) butchered a little map I made I never released, using tags from Hugeass and Coldsnap, and never giving credit in the readme when he ALMOST stuck it on Halomaps, before I intervened (It WAS my map, after all).

That completely changed my perspective on it.

Once it passes Tool it's not yours anymore so you really need change you perspective again.

Once it passes through Tool it is Bungie/Microsoft owned. Also, the map was never realesed so it was not ripping.

It doesn't matter if they never show up,it is stilltheir model, not the creator, so the creator has no permission to lock it up.

Can't make any updated since I still have big porblems running the last build by e3po.. http://www.yoyorast.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=167&p=1024#p1024

we're stuck with this big error for the moment..

About the protection.. Ye sure V2 will be 100% protected.. even if Matooba wants to release his ATV a little bit after V2.. that's ok, but I prefer to keep V2 as it will be.. I don't want 10 diferent verisons.. this will confuse people.. and I'm sure this is helping the community cause , HaloCE needs good quality maps.. this is what attract people to CE.. better than 10 maps with my custom hog or 10 V2 like maps that can't be as good as the original.. lokk at the V1 remakes.. they make pitty.. and makes lot empty servers..

hmmmm like wtf is that??........

like...i am not sure but is that an assault rifle because i thought that it would have reglar halo 1 weapon set...

It IS a regular Halo 1 weapon. e.e Textures just got screwed up. :(

.. so are they reskinning the halo 1 weapons or did the regular bitmaps of the original halo 1 assault rifle jsut screwed up..

They'are screwed.

And for the people who want to skip this I would not because there is some really good points in here.


I don't get that. IF those maps didn't get on a server then whats the big deal. If someone wanted to put your hog in BG they won't be able to. That's not fun. And preventing that is what is preventing good maps from comming out. It's a lot easier for people to make good stuff if the parts are already there infont of them. For example if you look at the Unreal Tournament 3 maps. Almost everysingle one of those maps are good because they are able to use parts that are already there. And just jumble those parts up and make an awsome thing. What if someone wants to make an awsome map with the tags. They don't even have that chance because you are protecting. And Those yoyorast V1 varients.. I don't see them having an effect because there is always tons of servers running yoyorast. And who said remakes. They could totally edit it and come up with something totally new. By protecting them you are not giving even a chance for people to make good things. And who said That hog is yours? And for the good quality maps. If you open source your map that will help make those good quality maps. Everything you said pretty much is false. And how will only one good map help as much when there could be 10 or more good varients of it. I think what attracts people is the fact that there is really no limit to maps. That is what makes CE so special. So I say that you open source this for the community. Think of it this way. Are you going to be the person who eventually leaves the community nothing except something to play or something to play and one step further to makeing better maps? And here is another thing, did Bungie let you edit their map in forge as much as possible so the community can take their creations and expand and make better ones and extend the playability. I really do not see a point in protecting this map. Its like waving a lolly pop infront of a 3 year old but not giving it to the child.

How, pray tell, is it preventing good maps from being made? Point Kiwi to one good modded map that wasn't made with the creator's permission.

i agree with Il duce and ILLEGALLcheatsMAN on this one because if all the maps had to be protected then we wouldn't have gotten maps like cmt_Snow_Grove which is very popular and is played on a daily basis, im sure you have extracted a tag or something from a .map?
Edited by spike15 on Feb 19, 2008 at 04:15 PM

Just so ya know, Arteen was a part of CMT so he could have quite easily given them an unprotected version (if that map is protected, Kiwi doesn't know if it is).

Let me tell you, I'm conviced of the absolut contrary of what you're saying.
Empty servers? CE is full of empty servers, that's THE deal.. you think this makes someone coming to CE for the 1st time want to stay? I've always prefered quality to quantity.. maybe that's a matter of taste but I prefer 10 full servers running high quality maps than seeing the same people dispersed on poor quality maps or poor remakes. It's better for the good maps that deserves to be played and also better for CE.. In the end, the goal is to make them playing togoether, not waiting for eachother in diferent servers/maps.
In the same idea, Bungie ddin't want to mix their HaloPC univers to CE when it came.. They didn't want people leave their own maps to go and play some newbie maps.. that's partly why they perefed to keep CE separated..
And a map is not good because it contains parts of other ones, that's not true.
Yes there are tons of server running V1 but let's face it, there's not more than 2 full server at a time and usually only one.. so no thank you I dont need any variant (and not good ones if you look at the V1 ones).. Cause I'm making V2 to have the maximum of players on it.. and if V2 is a success, it's good for CE.. this is my way of contributing to the community.. and I think making "a killer map" is the best way to contribute.. in the same way some killer apps or games could benfit a console or type of computer..

Anyway my map will be protected and I belileve this is for the good of CE, frankly.

It isn't, and Arteen wasn't on CMT at the time.

Yoyo makes a valid point, and the empty servers running Yoyomod proves it.

And here's my own contribution:
IF people wanted to make something with Yoyo's custom Hog, they need to learn to make their OWN stuff. Gmax is free, and we have HAX to export the animations. There is NO EXCUSE for not learning how to model and use the HEK.
It took me about a month to get the basics for the HEK, and while my first 2 maps were BG mods, for the weapons and vehicles, I didn't rip anything from anywhere. I made it from scratch.
Those taught me Sapien and Guerrilla (Mostly the latter), and if I could learn them that way, so could you. If you had made a map, and then seen it get butchered, you would feel the same as I do. Use BG for your mods, and make your own stuff, DON'T RIP. Ghost has a tutorial resource, you know. About half of the links are dead, but the ones that are still there help out a lot.
Yoyo doesn't want to see 50 V2 variants, and he doesn't want to see his Hog and Matooba's (Though I don't see how modeling and skinning it are more work than animating, tagging, and getting the thing ingame, which is a LOT of work, and yet everyone will STILL call it Matooba's ATV) Mongoose butchered in mods with makers that don't want to make things themselves.
Make it yourselves, don't rip and not give credit.
Edited by Jay2645 on Feb 19, 2008 at 07:45 PM

You fail to understand not everyone is skilled in making these tags. As you can see you don't see tons of awsome tags floating around. Because there are not many people who have the ability to make them.And all I have seen si the people working on it who want to protect it. Is that for fame greed... What are you doing. And your protecting what. Your not letting people use something that does not belong to you. That's like telling someone that they are not aloud to go in someone else's house. You will eventually leave fame is worth nothing over the internet. Mor epeople want to come and make maps w=for ce. Alot of people come if you notice to play Hugass and Coldsnap. That's because they hve awsome weapons vehicles. People love that. Just because you don't like them I don't like them. But the community loves them. What they would love too is to ahve those tags maybe in Hugeass and in their other favorite maps to play in. And with more of those people come the more people come period. That is what we need. I was just on and there was only 46 people on. And how do poeple make quality maps when they are nto skilled. How long does it take to be experienced enougth to make these quality maps. It takes years. The community does not have years. Alot of people are leaving because niot many maps have been made. OK people will come back play this map. then it will get old and leave. but if thye can edit it, then there is more playability. And helps the community learn. What you are sayign is all greed. You are not allowing to let some people use what doesn't belong to you. I know those varients do nto get played and maybe make the map look abd. how does it make the map look bad. people are willing to put there time into it because its bad that shows its a good map. I say by protecting you are just a useless person that is greedy enough that they don't care for the community.

Those who have no skill at making tags need to GET skill. When someone puts their blood, sweat, and tears into a gun or a vehicle, you don't want to see it wind up pink with flowers all over it in a BG mod. They don't want that to happen, so they protect it, to preserve it the way it's MEANT to be played. You protect your gun/vehicle/BSP/whatever from noobs who don't know balance and what a good mod is. In my opinion, there IS no good mods. You made the thing, you had to deal with tool, Guerrilla, and Sapien, you have a RIGHT to protect the thing YOU made. How is that like saying you can't go into someone else's house? And so what if fame means nothing over the internet, at least people aren't raping your tags. People come, they play awesome maps. That is right. But they should learn the HEK, and make a tag from scratch. Maybe then they will learn how much TIME and EFFORT goes into making a single tag, it's not just something you "do". Your door you're having me make which you keep bugging me about. That isn't so simple. That takes a lot of time and effort to get it right. It takes about a month for someone who REALLY wants to make maps to become great. It took me about a month. A good map won't gert old. A good map is something like Blood Gulch, which you can play again and again and again.
There are tutorials to have people learn.
How is that greed? We don't want our tags to be pink and have flowers on them, so we protect them. That is not greed. If you came home one day, and your mom had painted your room a hot pink, what would you be thinking? You wouldn't want it to happen, would you? But it is "protected", in a sense, by your mom knowing that you don't want a pink room. You made it, you spent time on it, I don't see Bungie enforcing the "All your tags are belong to us" rule, so it's MY tag. I worked on it, I did everything, and then we have someone who is too lazy to make their own stuff who comes in and ruins it. They want a tag like it, they need to learn how to make a tag like it.
Yoyomod, for instance. That makes the original Yoyorast Island look horrible, and someone who had never seen the original would assume it was a bad map, and thus, not download it. I say by protecting it, you're protecting the tags YOU spent time on, YOU ran through the steps, YOU did everything on from things you don't want to happen to them, as is your RIGHT. If you WANT to protect your tags, you CAN.
You've never made a tag, so you wouldn't know. Make a tag and come back and leave it unprotected. I don't care if you have a "crappy computer", find a way to make it run. If your computer was bought after the year 2001, you can play Halo, and thus, use the HEK. Now make a gun, make it good, and then let's see what your opinion is. If you have the same opinion, I'll rip your unprotected weapon, make it a hot pink with flowers all over it, then make it shoot pink Mythos nukes with unlimited ammo and no overheat, and I'll stick it in a map variant where I epically RUIN your map. Then we'll see whose for protecting.
Go on, stop wasting your time arguing for a lost cause and go and make that gun/vehicle/whatever. And make it GOOD.

That is the smartest thing I've heard anybody say all month. 4000 internets for you, sir.
Edited by ChocolateNugget on Feb 20, 2008 at 04:22 AM

Can't agree more with Jay on that.. I spent almost 3 years on V2.. believe me I feel it's mine like if it was my own Baby..

yoyorast is already picking out an school for v2 XD

but i agree until a serten point

like i think you should have an voice in who uses the tags adn who dont

but like when i make an weapon i would upload the old 1 just so that other people can use it and i still have the better 1 myself (because i took the effert to make it)

and ur talking about sharing but what if some1 would steal/ lend your paper your worked on
and finished
(for instance you made an paper out the planet mars)

then copy it, change some pics and give it to the teacher and then you will get an less good result so isntead of a B+ you'll get an C because he thinks you both got it from the internet or something

wouldnt you be mad

I can understand that yoyorast would be mad if people would make an mod of his map

he feels the same as you would be as getting that C instead of a B+
Edited by gamegodlazy on Feb 20, 2008 at 08:21 AM

Fame and crfedit I think means **** over the internet. It truely won't benifit you. With some occasions it can but here it will not. We all know you put your time into this. We all know that you are the creators. And for the people who don't know they probably don't know much about anything of thsi nature then their opinion isnt worth anything. So why should you care.

And protecting does NOT help the community. When open sourcing it is giving to the community where they can learn how you made these tags for fouture reference. Which can help them learnt hemselves. If that's what you want this can help them alot more than protecting. And what you don't want your feelings hurt. That is selfish when you could instead be helping alot more people.

Protecting gets the community no where. All I want to see is this community get better and you are not helping when you easily can.

70% of the time, open sourcing means more lame mods. Instead of open sourcing it, you can always make a tutorial.

Exactly how many people actually use the tags for references and not just throwing in a map who wouldn't go through the trouble of asking for it in the first place?

people can have my old tags but not my newest and for maps i would jsut close it for the purpose of not having lame mods of the map i made

People learn from making mods. That means people get mroe experience in the community. You have to start somewhere. And what happens if they can not come in contact with them. And why should they have to ask? I don't see anyone askign bungie. And exspeciallly when its nto his. But we do that for courtesy. Because we feel that it is the right thing to do because we are human. But for the newer people maybe don't know yoyorast so what you want more topics about can I has yoyo hog? You don't want other people to have your tags just so you won't feel bad. You should take that stuff as a compliment that they liked your tags enough that they put their own time into modifing it to fit their needs. What happens if Yoyo leaves or anyone leaves the community how will people get those tags. They won't. But why waste time asking for it when they can just dl it and rip it. Makes everyone happy but i have no clue why you are gonna get mad becauuse they used something you made. So you expect everyone to make a good tag before they die on earth. People can't do that. Some peopel don't have 3 years to make tags so they just want to put the tags in a map to ahve fun. What is wrong with that. And if no one plays them then why is someone going to play that and be like this map sucks when it doesnt get played in the first place. Open sourcing is how the community can get better. It doies not help by protecting. Just because you want to save yourself the 5 minutes of madeness that you get form seeing someone using your tags is just stupid. When people could want to join the community to play on a different map with these awsome tags. Seriously because you want to save the tags for yourself and save yourself from getting upset over seeing your tag pink is selfish. You want the community to get better well here is your chance.

Edit: you can set a good example for the next to follow and can benifit the community better. Having a library of tags is awsome. Its like having a library of imformation.
Edited by il Duce Primo on Feb 20, 2008 at 04:26 PM

yes but i think yoyo would release his tags when he would decide to leave(if not my bad)

i think everybody should release his tags that wherent public when you leave
or upload your old tags you arent going to use anymore and keep the better 1 yourself

in that way the community can keep on surviving and your map will still have that little bit of extra above teh mods or other maps wich use your old tags

Yes what he said

People DO learn from making mods. There is tutorial.map and the original HEK tags to look at for those.
For those who can't find a tutorial, there is, in large letters, a place called "GHOST'S TUTORIAL RESOURCE", which is on the HCE main page at Halomaps. They can go there and NOT ask, and just get the knowledge from the people who make good tags.
A tag you make, while not technically yours, is your baby. Like I said in my last post, YOU take the time and effort to make a good map, and then let's see YOU leave it unprotected. I don't see any topics about people asking for the hog or ATV, and if they do pop up, it's called typing a simple, 2-letter answer: No. Easy.
If people wanted to have similar tags when Yoyorast leaves, they can use a tutorial and make their own. That way, they RESPECT how much time and effort it takes to make those tags. Making tags builds experience, experience builds skill, and then we will have more skilled mappers in the community. This benefits the community, and then we won't have any modders (Hogdriver, for instance) that can't do anything BUT rip. People should be content with changing little things in the Assault Rifle and calling it a new gun, if they can't make one from scratch.
Putting tags in a map to have fun is innocent, at first. Then they decide "DIS IS AWESUM!!!!111" and release it to Halomaps, taking up more bandwidth, which, may I remind you, DENNIS pays for with his OWN MONEY.
Not to mention that they COULD be talking to their friends in real life, saying, "LOOK WAT I MAD BY MYSLEF!", and then they have their friends, who never made an account here, give him credit he DOESN'T DESERVE.
For the community to get better, the default HEK tags help a lot. Everything you mentioned can be accomplished with the default HEK tags. No need to rip. The HEK tags are open source, and many people BEFORE HEK+ came along used them and became great.
Newbies to the community will be happy playing Yoyorast Island, Coldsnap, Snow Grove, and Hugeass. If they want to take the guns from those maps, most wouldn't even know HOW. And when they bother to look for the HEK+, they might come to their senses and realize that Yoyorast Island was not built for Longswords.
Selfish? Well, just like fame, this is the internet, no one cares about selfishness either. You want a tag, you make it. In real life, you don't just go and take an apple because you want it. You have to go buy the apple, which requires money (For simplicity, let's just say that getting money is like using tutorials and making it yourself). If you just take the apple, it's considered stealing. Stealing ruins communities, and we would have more skilled mappers if they made it themselves.
Think about what would happen if CAD just ripped tags and never made anything. We would have no Zteam. Masterz isn't the best example, since he really doesn't do much in CMT anyway, but let's assume he does. If he just ripped and never learned the HEK, we would have no CMT. If TheGhost just ripped and never learned the HEK, we wouldn't have Yoyorast Island V1. Ignore the fact that HEK+ didn't even come around until these guys were already famous, if it WAS out and they had never learned to map, we wouldn't have any awesome mappers and the community would be ruined, wouldn't it?
People who stick to ripping COULD be the next CAD or TheGhost, if they just bother to learn the HEK.


ALSO, a rough translation of what he said (My French is a little rusty):
You did good research. So only that could keep Halo in a good state (No lag maybe?) like it does when it returns.

No clue what he means, I haven't taken a French class in 3 years, so I forgot most of it.
Edited by Jay2645 on Feb 20, 2008 at 05:09 PM

People will still amke tags even if they have these tags. And just because you rip doesn't mean you can't do anything else. If you notice you say just rip. Where are you saying people just rip. Ok just because there a few in the community who do that does nto mean you should ruin it for everyione. No one gives much respect for them anyway so why should it matter. And for the people who say they made it. Big deal why should you care not like you will ever know that si happeniong and when. You have to go outside and relise you will die. You can't be someone hiding becaus e their is a chnace that it will be stuck in a bad map. but dont let that get you down. lots of good things have been made because of ripping. Where would cmt be if the did not... Everyone rips and it should be encourage. it has been proven that it helps. Would we have some accurate halo 2 maps if ti wasnt for ripping. Ripping is a valuable thing in every community. By you protecting is setting a bad example and is not helping the development in the game engine.

K I want to see CE live and even maybe grow (like you I guess) so I'm releasing a map that I think has the potential to push up the number of player in CE more than dozens of maps you can see 2 days on some personal servers before they desapear.. Now stop tell me I could make something extraordinary for the comunity by releasing the map unprotected.. Cause I think I'm actually making something big for CE... and Im not here to teach anything to anyone (anyway Im only level designer/modeler here) my goal is not to "help the development in the game engine"... My contribution to help CE is something else : I want THE PLAYERS to ENJOY the Game and have FUN! That's what I want. Then I want them to tell there's one killer map in CE to their friends and then people will come hopefully.. For this to happen, for the map to be attractive even out of the comunity, for the map to be able to create the "buzz", It better be ORIGINAL, UNIQUE, and have some EXCLUSIVE concepts and stuff inside.. and to have some chances to keep these attractive qualities it better be PROTECTED. (Look at the IPhone succes : exclusive stuff, unique object, etc... ) This is my 1st motivation.. If you can't understand this logic and can't agree V2 better be protected in that perspective, I can't and won't argue anymore man.

You people need to grow up. You're not going to learn ANYTHING looking at yoyo's models and textures that you wouln't learn from the numerous maps released. Cut the ****, you people want to add other peoples tags, and maybe a few of your own, because you want to make what you think is a better and more fun map. I am incredibly sick of all you people complaining about "open source" You have more than enough tutorials and examples out there. The problem is that 90% of you are lazy and lack the self control to make something great. You just want to have people make it for you, and then take the easy way out, add some **** in, and call it your own.

As for you Jay, if you have a problem with me, say it. I don't need to read your pot shots every time I view one of your posts. You have no idea what I do for CMT and the community at large. Grow the **** up, I'm a senior member of this community, and I've acomplished more than you can possibly understand.

I need to grow up? I make my own stuff. i can make may own stuff. I help the community. I have no clue what the **** you are talking about. Just because I want to see the community expand and grow does not make me lazy. Please explain that please because I must be missing something.

I think I see Yoyo's point. If it was released unprotected, especially after this debate, how many people who download it would take it straight into HEK+, so they could mess with it in Sapien? I'm curious, though I certainly would not be uploading a mod of it. I might rip a chunk off and make it scenery, though, if I saw a good jump or something. Is that wrong?

Yeah, like it's MY fault. I do believe that YOU have been the one that has been taking potshots at ME since I signed up at H2V. If you have such a problem that you can throw potshots at me, but when I strike back, you get defensive, then you shouldn't be giving out what you can't take.
Also, this is Halomaps, not H2V. There are rules AGAINST cussing here.

Let's show some examples of it at H2V, shall we?





There's more, but the minimum character length at H2V is 4, so I had to use Jay*, with * being a wildcard for commas and apostrophe s'es.
Point is, he does it a lot, and my comments don't warrant it. So now I'm striking back.
Edited by Jay2645 on Feb 20, 2008 at 11:14 PM